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posted by [personal profile] kalpurna at 01:41am on 02/08/2008
This is such a wanky post to make. HOWEVER.

I find it incredibly troublesome when people, well-intentioned though they may be, try to combat negative generalizations about [group X] by substituting "good" generalizations about said group. My mom does this a lot, and I guarantee she means nothing bad by it. "Oh, at first I was scared by traveling to a third-world country, but the people are so friendly!" Yeah... except not all of them are. And they shouldn't have to be just to alleviate your fears. (And "third world" is a problematic term to begin with.)

Now, I don't bring this stuff up with my mom, because she's, well, my mom. It's not worth it, and it'd hurt her feelings, and she wouldn't learn from it. But fandom is a lot younger than my mom. Fandom's better-educated. And when fandom does stuff like that, I kind of feel like I should point it out.

So... Lyn-Z. What do we know about Lyn-Z? She's a mediocre bassist and excellent performer in a self-consciously edgy band that makes music influenced by many genres including hip-hop and punk. She has tattoos. She doesn't write music or lyrics. She's a talented visual artist who was accepted to one of the most prestigious art schools in the country. She's smart, articulate, from Connecticut, lived in New York, wears pigtails, doesn't mind smelling bad, used to be chubby. There's plenty of person there. That's a whole lot of canon.

And yet we persist in thinking of her as "a real musician, who plays a real instrument, not someone looking for attention." Guys. That is not who she is. That doesn't in ANY way mean she's not deserving of respect, but then again, I think Pete Wentz deserves your respect, so there you go.

The other bizarre thing that seems to happen in fic and meta, the other weird transformation, is the way that Victoria becomes a badass dominatrix and Greta becomes a shy sweet angel. Vicky-T was unpopular in high school. She doesn't think of herself as attractive. She never talks on stage, and she cried over FBR_Trash being mean to her. Meanwhile, Greta was in the homecoming court, joined every club in school, and has never shown anything but wicked glee at any shenanigans her band or audience have gotten up to. She's a genuinely nice, smart person, but she's also the popular kid. She's also the one cracking jokes at her bandmates' expense.

There's this constant trend in bandom to talk about "acceptable" women as being the girls who don't sing, the girls who don't have myspaces, the girls who don't "cause drama" with fans, the girls who support their men to the point (in fic) of accepting their gay romances, the girls who are chubby (or formerly chubby) and nerdy and brunette and worshipped by everyone around them. They're people who fangirls would like to hang out with. And when it comes down to details, we all know that Vicky-T is a femme fatale, Greta is a shy smart sweetheart, Jamia is some sort of perfect zen goddess, Lyn-Z is a badass Musician with a capital M, Haley is Brendon's innocent BFFL, and so on and so on down the line.

I'm not saying that anyone who has written fic with any of these characterizations has written bad fic. I have adored fics about each and every one of these characters. It's just that I feel like while Hyperactive Five Year Old Brendon is annoying, at least he doesn't have quite the same tinny collection of implications clattering along behind him, you know? I'm tired of feeling like genderfucked male characters are richer and better-developed than characters who were born female and are actually out there in the world living a woman's life. I'm tired of people ascribing more complexity to Pete Wentz's little finger than Victoria Asher's entire body.

If I never see the phrase "so and so is a real woman" again it will be too soon.

I truly don't mean to be insulting to people who joined the write-in campaign to support Lyn-Z and let her know she's appreciated. I think that's awesome. I just also think there can be more complicated problems than simple Mary-Sueing going on in the background when we fangirl women.

Context: 1|2|3
There are 57 comments on this entry. (Reply.)
 
posted by [identity profile] bluevsgrey.livejournal.com at 06:54am on 02/08/2008
eh, I agree

I was going to write a 'but' but I have none
 
posted by [identity profile] shihadchick.livejournal.com at 07:12am on 02/08/2008
...I don't have anything actually intelligent to add here, aside from: clearly I've been reading the wrong fics, because I was all on board with the stereotypical characterisation of Greta as the darling kinda sociopath of entertaining evilness.

Um.

(But, no, really, which is to say that I think it is extremely fucked up to end up considering some people more 'acceptable' than others for the sorts of reasons you've mentioned, and just- yeah. And hey, there's a lot of canon you managed to put in there that I had no idea about at all (admittedly, I've just plain seen more of MCR and Panic overall so far anyway) which is interesting to find out in and of itself, so thanks for that. And I think there's a lot of good 'hey, self-examine a bit' type suggestion in what you've said that I know I'm going to be sort of mentally checklisting myself in the future to make sure I don't inadvertently buy into something that, if I thought about it more carefully, I would find pretty low and insulting. (And I hope that makes sense out of my head, at any rate.))
 
posted by [identity profile] bkm5191.livejournal.com at 07:33am on 02/08/2008
I like Lyn-Z from what I know of her, but that is much like saying "I like Michelle Obama from what I know of her." I think a lot of people are desperate to ascribe talents to Lyn to make her more, I don't know, more everything. I'm not a huge MSI fan, so I am not the best person to ask about their talent, but the nicest thing I can muster up is 'they are ok' and 'they are probably fun to see live."

I find the thing with Lyn is that (some) people are almost falling over themselves to love her to prove they aren't the kind of teeny fangirls that hate on Keltie in Panic fandoms or demi in jonas brothers fandoms or whatever. So she's still not being seen for who / what she is, she's the anti someone else.
 
posted by [identity profile] just-katarin.livejournal.com at 07:35am on 02/08/2008
Seriously! And I don't understand how it's somehow something ghastly and monstrous to point out how weird and problematic that is.
 
posted by [identity profile] shibaiko.livejournal.com at 08:25am on 02/08/2008
I think this is a problem, not only in bandom, but kind of... well, everywhere? Do you read Jezebel (http://www.jezebel.com)? There was a post yesterday (here (http://jezebel.com/5030532/pretty-is-as-pretty-does-the-middle+school-moment)) that I think really connects with this. It was about the difference between girls who were the Pretty Girl in middle school and high school, and those who were Ugly Girls (neither of these labels has anything to do with actual physical attractiveness, mind), and how we tend to cling to whichever one we were years down the road, long after they've become irrelevant. Fandom, just by it's very nature, tends to be (and again, this has nothing to do with actual physical attractiveness) full of former (and current) Ugly Girls, and when it comes to media, we're usually attracted to our own kind. I think it's really easy to look at Greta (or Jamia or Lyn-Z or whoever) and say, oh well, Greta's like me. Greta's smart and funny and good at music because she had to be, she's not one of those bitchy girls who was able to get by on their looks alone. And even though Greta actually was popular in high school, and was very possibly a Pretty Girl, I think it's easier for people to just assume that she wasn't. Whereas, if you look at Audrey Kitching, or even Jac Vanek, or any other number of scene queens (or especially Ashlee Simpson), I think most people automatically assume that they are the Prettiest of Pretty Girls. They're confident, they're attractive, they're all friends, they date boys in bands, they have the nerve to cause drama, what's separating them from the cheerleading team, you know? It's just an assumption that makes me so uncomfortable, both ways. Why does being a Pretty Girl automatically mean that you're a vapid bitch who slept her way to the top? Why does NOT being a Pretty Girl automatically qualify someone for sainthood? Why is there no gray area?

(Oh my god, this is so tl;dr. That's what I get for checking my fl on the way to bed, right?)

IN CONCLUSION: I wish we knew more about most of the bandgirls (both those in bands and those date bandboys), because right now they are kind of blank slates, and what people are doing is the equivalent of going into an empty class room and a) write "*YOUR NAME* WUZ HERE" on it or b) drawing a penis on it.
 
posted by [identity profile] eleanor-lavish.livejournal.com at 02:46pm on 02/08/2008
Man, the number of times I have talked about "Pretty Girl" friends of mine and said "I wish I could hate her, but I just can't! She is so smart/nice/cool/great!" is kind of insane. And it makes me feel like an ass, it really does, but it gets so easy, even when you're in your thirties, to fall back on that high school stereotype of people who aren't perfect being a lot easier to get along with/nicer to you than people who seem to have it all.

I am always drawn to the girls who project "weird" to me, and to the ones who project "fuck you". I LIKE women who seem to strong enough to have gotten over that bullshit they possible (who knows!) went through, because I would like to think I have too (even though clearly I haven't). The video of Greta laughing at Bob as he voms up a hot pepper made me love her a lot more, because I thought "oh, THERE is how she gets along with these boys! THERE is the edge it took me way too long to grow!"

idk. I guess I agree with your conclusion, and I think that's why I steer clear of fics where the girls are main characters. I don't like the Mary Sue-ing, and I don't like the way we make up sainted qualities for the girls we "like", and i don't like making Ashlee the villain just because she's the pretty one, so... I guess I am impossible to please.
 
posted by [identity profile] jamjar.livejournal.com at 09:14am on 02/08/2008
I have a deep, deep hatred for the phrase "real women". "Real women are size twelve," "real women have hips", "real women wear trainers"-- so women who are size 0-20 aren't real? Women who are slim aren't real? Women who like wearing skirts and heels are less real or less sincere than women who like denim and flats? Especially the first one, that just really, really pisses me off.

And also, I really agree with you about the generalisations and characterisations. It's-- well, after a while, it just gets boring, as well as annoying and frustrating. I like Femme fatale Vicky-T, but there's no indication that she acts like that at all around strangers,

I didn't know that Victoria was unpopular in High School, but it's not surprising either. Vicky-T is, in the video clips, funny with her band, silly and sometimes drunk and noisy, but she's also extremely reserved outside of her group, in interviews or with outside-people and is more often behind the camera than on it*, especially in the early days.

Whereas Greta always looks very comfortable with the camera, makes jokes with and about her friends, and yeah, kind of looks like a popular kid. Strangely, that doesn't make her a bad person, any more than being unpopular intrinsically makes someone a good person.


*Vicky-T as Bob Bryar- have we ever seen them in the same place together?

 
posted by [identity profile] missmollyetc.livejournal.com at 08:56pm on 03/08/2008
Are we saying that Bob Bryar is the Were!Vicky-T, or that Vicky-T is the Were!Bob Bryar? Because I would read either story! ::GRINS::
 
posted by [identity profile] moondarri.livejournal.com at 10:21am on 02/08/2008
no words but big earnest eyes of agreement. o-o ♥
 
posted by [identity profile] tygrestick.livejournal.com at 12:37pm on 02/08/2008
This is a really interesting post! I have to say, I agree with just about everything you say (although not the stereotypical fic characterization of Greta- I don't think I've ever read a fic where she was like that, or at least not one I remember). I think that interrogating fandoms feminist leanings is really important, especially since it can be so problematic.

But I also think it's interesting that a lot of this seems to be coming out of the Lyn-Z project! I think a lot of the people who wrote to her probably don't have a feminist education or background, and probably don't even realize that they may or may not be thinking about anything in any sort of problematic way. But the fact that the letters seem genuinely earnest and heartfelt makes up for a lot, in my book, and means that Lyn-Z will probably be thrilled and touched to receive them regardless.

So I don't know.... it's definitely a good and important thing to take what the Lyn-Z campaign people have said and interrogate it, but in the end I think regardless of whether they have fully fleshed feminist beliefs or just fall into the trap of being happy that any woman is playing seriously in a band and acting like that's the only important thing, the fact they're they're feeling inspired about her for any reason and writing that and hoping to help Lyn-Z sort of trumps it and makes me a bit more optimistic about feminism's role in fandom. :-D

I am so long winded, sorry!
ext_7824: Greta Salpeter (Default)
posted by [identity profile] kalpurna.livejournal.com at 04:50am on 04/08/2008
I actually do like the fact that people kneejerk love and support the girlfriends, I much prefer it to the alternative! This is kind of nitpicky, which is why I called it a wanky post - I feel a little guilty for critiquing details of what is essentially a good thing. But - I don't know. I feel like good intentions don't always excuse a sketchy way of thinking, you know?

But yeah, I really do feel a bit conflicted, because I'm essentially criticizing friendly initiatives and communities, and people who actually include women in their fic instead of just leaving them out, and I don't want to discourage that. /o\ Real life, why so much more complicated than would be convenient?
 
posted by [identity profile] impertinence.livejournal.com at 01:55pm on 02/08/2008
agreed. ♥
 
posted by [identity profile] supergrover24.livejournal.com at 02:10pm on 02/08/2008
Hmm. This (and your links) have given me something to think about. Thank you.
 
posted by [identity profile] tuesdaysgone.livejournal.com at 02:15pm on 02/08/2008
I was really interested to read this, especially after I went and looked at the other entries you linked, which were all thought-provoking. There's a part of me that wants to say really cynical things, and there's a part of me that's honestly delighted people want to do sweet things for people they admire. Far be it from me to assume I know what motivates people, or even assume they know what motivates them. But...you're right, how we as (mostly) women fans deal with the women in bandom is complicated. I really think we owe it to ourselves to try to examine that every once in a while.
 
posted by [identity profile] jadziadrgnrdr.livejournal.com at 02:16pm on 02/08/2008
I actually haven't read any fic with any of the aforementioned women in them. The most I have read is Keltie because that's just how my fandom tastes run but to be fair most of our characterizations are two dimensional. Like have you ever deconstructed Jon Walker in fic? I bet almost everything you ever read he was the drunk/high/chill/protective one. Remember when we endured months and months of Ryan The Whimpering Cock Slut and Brendon The Sadistic Sexual Predator/5 Year Old Boy Jekyl and Hyde" personas? Even Pete's brand of crazy is uber predictable in fic. I still suckle at it like the tit of a manna giving creature.

I get what your saying though and as someone who doesn't' read a lot of femme centered fic I'm at a deficit. (I'll check out the links you provided) but I was just curious as to how much you think it is ascribable to the fact that fanon and fic writing just bes like that sometimes.
 
posted by [identity profile] jamjar.livejournal.com at 05:18pm on 02/08/2008
When Brendan said that he'd smoked pot in high school I wanted to laugh because I could feel a lot of the standard characterizations crumble. Fandom does tend to get into habits, and some of them are fun and some of them make me hit the back button so hard (evil!Gabe being a big back-button one for me).

That said, if something is getting into a pattern, then it can be kind of worrisome, and if people are trying to make Pete Wentz or Bob Bryar a balanced character, if they're trying to actually look at background and how they come off in interviews, how their bandmates and colleagues describe them, but aren't willing to do the same for female characters? If we start off with "I like her, therefore she must have A, B and C traits (because otherwise I wouldn't like her." And, flipside, "I don't like her because she's X, Y and Z (and she must be X, Y and Z, otherwise I'd have no reason not to like her)."

That's worrying.
 
posted by [identity profile] tempore.livejournal.com at 07:52pm on 02/08/2008
I was directed to this, hope you don't mind, because I want to say "Right the fuck on!"

Thank you for saying this.
 
posted by [identity profile] myaurasmiles.livejournal.com at 08:09pm on 02/08/2008
I really just wish women could be seen as more three-dimensional. It seems to me like some women don't even see themselves that way and label themselves and force themselves into the same boxes they force those women they admire or don't into. People grow and people change and they are multi-layered and even going back to high school when people are probably a little less three-dimensional than they will eventually be, no one was a cardboard cutout. Whatever made people popular did not determine their interests or their issues or personal feelings on anything. Vicky-T is neither the popular girl nor is she the absolute ugly duckling. She's somewhere in the middle, just like everyone else. The ways in which we judge and label ourselves can be just as messed up as the way we judge and label other women. I think what I am basically saying is that the whole system is made of fail and I agree with you.

Also, I totally agree about the "real woman" bullshit.
ext_30531: (Default)
posted by [identity profile] iamsupernova.livejournal.com at 07:28pm on 03/08/2008
I'm very interested in your post as well as the comments. I'm having a hard time explaining my views on the topic, but one thing I'd like to point out is that we seem to have encountered (and hopefully overcome) the compartmentalization issue when some of the actual bandpeople found fic. Bandom exploded; some people's fourth walls crumbled.

The thing about compartmentalization is that not only does it allow me to read fic and then see these people in concert and meet them without freaking out or feeling hugely guilty, but it also allows me to accept that Lyn-Z and the rest of the women in bandom are not exactly the same as the personas we've given their characters in fic. I really enjoy reading Lyn-Z (and the other women) in fic and I do hold many of them as examples of my personal goals. But it's like when someone asks me who my idols are- I can't say one whole person for sure. I find traits I admire and want to emulate that I see in these people.

I hope that made sense. I'll be watching this post for more interesting commentary.
 
posted by (anonymous) at 11:53pm on 03/08/2008
On a related note, I would love for writers to realize that these women aren't actually perfect. They're human, ok? They fuck up and they get depressed and they have bad days just like the guys. They aren't mythical bad ass goddesses IRL and the fic should reflect that IMO.
 
posted by [identity profile] jezzabe.livejournal.com at 03:24am on 04/08/2008
I completely agree with this post. ♥
 
posted by [identity profile] kwalktown.livejournal.com at 04:28am on 04/08/2008
Having read this and some of the linked posts, this is probably slightly ranty and weird, because for all people are like, "Women's Rights FTW!", I couldn't give a fuck what someone thinks my rights are.

MSI don't perform live for their music, ffs! I try not to judge people full stop, but as a group, their performance is for entertainment. Having seen them live, I can say that whole-heartedly.

I'm not a big fan of bandom-women. Because I DON'T THINK THEY'RE ALL FUCKING RAINBOWS AND LOLLIPOPS. Greta kinda reminds me of someone who I'd like to hit sometimes, just because she seems like she woulda pushed me around when I was younger. But hey, that's ok. She's also really nice. So? Effing write her that way, my god. I don't generally write any women into my fic, it's a fault of mine, but. But. If you're going to, just... DO SOMETHING.

Idk. This makes no sense and has no point to it really. I'm not even sure I like any of the girls in bandom, just because... I know nothing about them, why would I?

BUT - that in itself is judgemental/prejudiced, because who am I to assume that I know anything about the boys of bandom? But that's ok.

So after stating I don't give a fuck about women's rights, here I am saying they should get equal thought in the preparation of fic.

In other words, ITAWTAP. That is all xD.
 
posted by [identity profile] cerulean-studio.livejournal.com at 04:36am on 04/08/2008
oh sweet irony
 
posted by [identity profile] nosenseinwar.livejournal.com at 04:38am on 04/08/2008
I agree with part of your comment.

This makes no sense and has no point to it really.
 
posted by [identity profile] miznarrator.livejournal.com at 10:49am on 05/08/2008
*comes in late*

We should talk about this over pancakes. SO LOOKING FORWARD HOMG.

c[_] I raise a cup of coffee at you.

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