posted by
kalpurna at 01:41am on 02/08/2008
This is such a wanky post to make. HOWEVER.
I find it incredibly troublesome when people, well-intentioned though they may be, try to combat negative generalizations about [group X] by substituting "good" generalizations about said group. My mom does this a lot, and I guarantee she means nothing bad by it. "Oh, at first I was scared by traveling to a third-world country, but the people are so friendly!" Yeah... except not all of them are. And they shouldn't have to be just to alleviate your fears. (And "third world" is a problematic term to begin with.)
Now, I don't bring this stuff up with my mom, because she's, well, my mom. It's not worth it, and it'd hurt her feelings, and she wouldn't learn from it. But fandom is a lot younger than my mom. Fandom's better-educated. And when fandom does stuff like that, I kind of feel like I should point it out.
So... Lyn-Z. What do we know about Lyn-Z? She's a mediocre bassist and excellent performer in a self-consciously edgy band that makes music influenced by many genres including hip-hop and punk. She has tattoos. She doesn't write music or lyrics. She's a talented visual artist who was accepted to one of the most prestigious art schools in the country. She's smart, articulate, from Connecticut, lived in New York, wears pigtails, doesn't mind smelling bad, used to be chubby. There's plenty of person there. That's a whole lot of canon.
And yet we persist in thinking of her as "a real musician, who plays a real instrument, not someone looking for attention." Guys. That is not who she is. That doesn't in ANY way mean she's not deserving of respect, but then again, I think Pete Wentz deserves your respect, so there you go.
The other bizarre thing that seems to happen in fic and meta, the other weird transformation, is the way that Victoria becomes a badass dominatrix and Greta becomes a shy sweet angel. Vicky-T was unpopular in high school. She doesn't think of herself as attractive. She never talks on stage, and she cried over FBR_Trash being mean to her. Meanwhile, Greta was in the homecoming court, joined every club in school, and has never shown anything but wicked glee at any shenanigans her band or audience have gotten up to. She's a genuinely nice, smart person, but she's also the popular kid. She's also the one cracking jokes at her bandmates' expense.
There's this constant trend in bandom to talk about "acceptable" women as being the girls who don't sing, the girls who don't have myspaces, the girls who don't "cause drama" with fans, the girls who support their men to the point (in fic) of accepting their gay romances, the girls who are chubby (or formerly chubby) and nerdy and brunette and worshipped by everyone around them. They're people who fangirls would like to hang out with. And when it comes down to details, we all know that Vicky-T is a femme fatale, Greta is a shy smart sweetheart, Jamia is some sort of perfect zen goddess, Lyn-Z is a badass Musician with a capital M, Haley is Brendon's innocent BFFL, and so on and so on down the line.
I'm not saying that anyone who has written fic with any of these characterizations has written bad fic. I have adored fics about each and every one of these characters. It's just that I feel like while Hyperactive Five Year Old Brendon is annoying, at least he doesn't have quite the same tinny collection of implications clattering along behind him, you know? I'm tired of feeling like genderfucked male characters are richer and better-developed than characters who were born female and are actually out there in the world living a woman's life. I'm tired of people ascribing more complexity to Pete Wentz's little finger than Victoria Asher's entire body.
If I never see the phrase "so and so is a real woman" again it will be too soon.
I truly don't mean to be insulting to people who joined the write-in campaign to support Lyn-Z and let her know she's appreciated. I think that's awesome. I just also think there can be more complicated problems than simple Mary-Sueing going on in the background when we fangirl women.
Context: 1|2|3
I find it incredibly troublesome when people, well-intentioned though they may be, try to combat negative generalizations about [group X] by substituting "good" generalizations about said group. My mom does this a lot, and I guarantee she means nothing bad by it. "Oh, at first I was scared by traveling to a third-world country, but the people are so friendly!" Yeah... except not all of them are. And they shouldn't have to be just to alleviate your fears. (And "third world" is a problematic term to begin with.)
Now, I don't bring this stuff up with my mom, because she's, well, my mom. It's not worth it, and it'd hurt her feelings, and she wouldn't learn from it. But fandom is a lot younger than my mom. Fandom's better-educated. And when fandom does stuff like that, I kind of feel like I should point it out.
So... Lyn-Z. What do we know about Lyn-Z? She's a mediocre bassist and excellent performer in a self-consciously edgy band that makes music influenced by many genres including hip-hop and punk. She has tattoos. She doesn't write music or lyrics. She's a talented visual artist who was accepted to one of the most prestigious art schools in the country. She's smart, articulate, from Connecticut, lived in New York, wears pigtails, doesn't mind smelling bad, used to be chubby. There's plenty of person there. That's a whole lot of canon.
And yet we persist in thinking of her as "a real musician, who plays a real instrument, not someone looking for attention." Guys. That is not who she is. That doesn't in ANY way mean she's not deserving of respect, but then again, I think Pete Wentz deserves your respect, so there you go.
The other bizarre thing that seems to happen in fic and meta, the other weird transformation, is the way that Victoria becomes a badass dominatrix and Greta becomes a shy sweet angel. Vicky-T was unpopular in high school. She doesn't think of herself as attractive. She never talks on stage, and she cried over FBR_Trash being mean to her. Meanwhile, Greta was in the homecoming court, joined every club in school, and has never shown anything but wicked glee at any shenanigans her band or audience have gotten up to. She's a genuinely nice, smart person, but she's also the popular kid. She's also the one cracking jokes at her bandmates' expense.
There's this constant trend in bandom to talk about "acceptable" women as being the girls who don't sing, the girls who don't have myspaces, the girls who don't "cause drama" with fans, the girls who support their men to the point (in fic) of accepting their gay romances, the girls who are chubby (or formerly chubby) and nerdy and brunette and worshipped by everyone around them. They're people who fangirls would like to hang out with. And when it comes down to details, we all know that Vicky-T is a femme fatale, Greta is a shy smart sweetheart, Jamia is some sort of perfect zen goddess, Lyn-Z is a badass Musician with a capital M, Haley is Brendon's innocent BFFL, and so on and so on down the line.
I'm not saying that anyone who has written fic with any of these characterizations has written bad fic. I have adored fics about each and every one of these characters. It's just that I feel like while Hyperactive Five Year Old Brendon is annoying, at least he doesn't have quite the same tinny collection of implications clattering along behind him, you know? I'm tired of feeling like genderfucked male characters are richer and better-developed than characters who were born female and are actually out there in the world living a woman's life. I'm tired of people ascribing more complexity to Pete Wentz's little finger than Victoria Asher's entire body.
If I never see the phrase "so and so is a real woman" again it will be too soon.
I truly don't mean to be insulting to people who joined the write-in campaign to support Lyn-Z and let her know she's appreciated. I think that's awesome. I just also think there can be more complicated problems than simple Mary-Sueing going on in the background when we fangirl women.
Context: 1|2|3
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I was going to write a 'but' but I have none
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Um.
(But, no, really, which is to say that I think it is extremely fucked up to end up considering some people more 'acceptable' than others for the sorts of reasons you've mentioned, and just- yeah. And hey, there's a lot of canon you managed to put in there that I had no idea about at all (admittedly, I've just plain seen more of MCR and Panic overall so far anyway) which is interesting to find out in and of itself, so thanks for that. And I think there's a lot of good 'hey, self-examine a bit' type suggestion in what you've said that I know I'm going to be sort of mentally checklisting myself in the future to make sure I don't inadvertently buy into something that, if I thought about it more carefully, I would find pretty low and insulting. (And I hope that makes sense out of my head, at any rate.))
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I find the thing with Lyn is that (some) people are almost falling over themselves to love her to prove they aren't the kind of teeny fangirls that hate on Keltie in Panic fandoms or demi in jonas brothers fandoms or whatever. So she's still not being seen for who / what she is, she's the anti someone else.
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(Oh my god, this is so tl;dr. That's what I get for checking my fl on the way to bed, right?)
IN CONCLUSION: I wish we knew more about most of the bandgirls (both those in bands and those date bandboys), because right now they are kind of blank slates, and what people are doing is the equivalent of going into an empty class room and a) write "*YOUR NAME* WUZ HERE" on it or b) drawing a penis on it.
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I am always drawn to the girls who project "weird" to me, and to the ones who project "fuck you". I LIKE women who seem to strong enough to have gotten over that bullshit they possible (who knows!) went through, because I would like to think I have too (even though clearly I haven't). The video of Greta laughing at Bob as he voms up a hot pepper made me love her a lot more, because I thought "oh, THERE is how she gets along with these boys! THERE is the edge it took me way too long to grow!"
idk. I guess I agree with your conclusion, and I think that's why I steer clear of fics where the girls are main characters. I don't like the Mary Sue-ing, and I don't like the way we make up sainted qualities for the girls we "like", and i don't like making Ashlee the villain just because she's the pretty one, so... I guess I am impossible to please.
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And also, I really agree with you about the generalisations and characterisations. It's-- well, after a while, it just gets boring, as well as annoying and frustrating. I like Femme fatale Vicky-T, but there's no indication that she acts like that at all around strangers,
I didn't know that Victoria was unpopular in High School, but it's not surprising either. Vicky-T is, in the video clips, funny with her band, silly and sometimes drunk and noisy, but she's also extremely reserved outside of her group, in interviews or with outside-people and is more often behind the camera than on it*, especially in the early days.
Whereas Greta always looks very comfortable with the camera, makes jokes with and about her friends, and yeah, kind of looks like a popular kid. Strangely, that doesn't make her a bad person, any more than being unpopular intrinsically makes someone a good person.
*Vicky-T as Bob Bryar- have we ever seen them in the same place together?
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But I also think it's interesting that a lot of this seems to be coming out of the Lyn-Z project! I think a lot of the people who wrote to her probably don't have a feminist education or background, and probably don't even realize that they may or may not be thinking about anything in any sort of problematic way. But the fact that the letters seem genuinely earnest and heartfelt makes up for a lot, in my book, and means that Lyn-Z will probably be thrilled and touched to receive them regardless.
So I don't know.... it's definitely a good and important thing to take what the Lyn-Z campaign people have said and interrogate it, but in the end I think regardless of whether they have fully fleshed feminist beliefs or just fall into the trap of being happy that any woman is playing seriously in a band and acting like that's the only important thing, the fact they're they're feeling inspired about her for any reason and writing that and hoping to help Lyn-Z sort of trumps it and makes me a bit more optimistic about feminism's role in fandom. :-D
I am so long winded, sorry!
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But yeah, I really do feel a bit conflicted, because I'm essentially criticizing friendly initiatives and communities, and people who actually include women in their fic instead of just leaving them out, and I don't want to discourage that. /o\ Real life, why so much more complicated than would be convenient?
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I get what your saying though and as someone who doesn't' read a lot of femme centered fic I'm at a deficit. (I'll check out the links you provided) but I was just curious as to how much you think it is ascribable to the fact that fanon and fic writing just bes like that sometimes.
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That said, if something is getting into a pattern, then it can be kind of worrisome, and if people are trying to make Pete Wentz or Bob Bryar a balanced character, if they're trying to actually look at background and how they come off in interviews, how their bandmates and colleagues describe them, but aren't willing to do the same for female characters? If we start off with "I like her, therefore she must have A, B and C traits (because otherwise I wouldn't like her." And, flipside, "I don't like her because she's X, Y and Z (and she must be X, Y and Z, otherwise I'd have no reason not to like her)."
That's worrying.
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Thank you for saying this.
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Also, I totally agree about the "real woman" bullshit.
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The thing about compartmentalization is that not only does it allow me to read fic and then see these people in concert and meet them without freaking out or feeling hugely guilty, but it also allows me to accept that Lyn-Z and the rest of the women in bandom are not exactly the same as the personas we've given their characters in fic. I really enjoy reading Lyn-Z (and the other women) in fic and I do hold many of them as examples of my personal goals. But it's like when someone asks me who my idols are- I can't say one whole person for sure. I find traits I admire and want to emulate that I see in these people.
I hope that made sense. I'll be watching this post for more interesting commentary.
IAWTP hardcore
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MSI don't perform live for their music, ffs! I try not to judge people full stop, but as a group, their performance is for entertainment. Having seen them live, I can say that whole-heartedly.
I'm not a big fan of bandom-women. Because I DON'T THINK THEY'RE ALL FUCKING RAINBOWS AND LOLLIPOPS. Greta kinda reminds me of someone who I'd like to hit sometimes, just because she seems like she woulda pushed me around when I was younger. But hey, that's ok. She's also really nice. So? Effing write her that way, my god. I don't generally write any women into my fic, it's a fault of mine, but. But. If you're going to, just... DO SOMETHING.
Idk. This makes no sense and has no point to it really. I'm not even sure I like any of the girls in bandom, just because... I know nothing about them, why would I?
BUT - that in itself is judgemental/prejudiced, because who am I to assume that I know anything about the boys of bandom? But that's ok.
So after stating I don't give a fuck about women's rights, here I am saying they should get equal thought in the preparation of fic.
In other words, ITAWTAP. That is all xD.
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This makes no sense and has no point to it really.
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We should talk about this over pancakes. SO LOOKING FORWARD HOMG.
c[_] I raise a cup of coffee at you.