kalpurna: (citrus)
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So, general consensus seems to be that the lemon thing on SG1 = HILARIOUS ANTICS! Uhm, or, alternatively, that it = a deep and lasting betrayal of Rodney by John, in a horrible attempt to get an in with the cool crowd (Mitchell).

Interesting.

See, to me? This echoes a whole lot of other fandramas, in that it really depends on how you choose to look at the show.

There are two basic ways, to my mind, to approach events within a TV show, and people tend to blend these to varying degrees. The first is to look at stuff within the context of the show's attitude: assume that facts are colored by the way the characters and narrative seem to react to those facts. The second is to look at stuff within the context of the larger world: what do WE, as viewers, know about these facts, in our own lives, and how then should we interpret the show. Again, I'm pretty sure you have to have at least SOME of both going on in order to appreciate television as entertainment. But when different fans have different mixes, then things get a little crazed.

Uhm, I'm being totally incoherent and technical, aren't I. OK, I'll try giving some examples – from Buffy, just for laughs.

Let's take the plural of apocalypse.

Within the context of real life, if someone said the world was ending, you might very well PISS YOUR PANTS. This would be a huge. fucking. deal. And yet, on Buffy, imminent mass destruction is met with a quip and a cute hair toss. And we couldn't appreciate the show at all if we didn't accept that as BuffyReality. So us fans, we're used to that. We can cope with a false gloss on reality, because it rings true in other ways. Fine.

But some things aren't as easy to accept. For instance? Let's take Spike.

Spike was, canonically, an unrepentant mass murderer. THIS IS TRUE. And yet, the show portrayed him as a charismatic, interesting, sexy, nerdy person who wasn't that bad a guy. Mischievous, bastardly, an asshole, sure. But an actual fucked up psychopath? Come on. RARELY. And so fandom became somewhat divided between people who said OMG, guys, he's a serial killer, and people who said BUT HE'S REAL CUTE. (Just to be clear? I fall in the latter camp.) And the SHOW encouraged us to have that problem, by using two different levels of storytelling to convey two different layers of information. It was a problem. You could either believe the character you were told about, and occasionally saw glimpses of, or you could believe the character you saw living his life.

This whole lemon thing is an issue, to my mind, mainly because too many of us have outside information on how serious food allergies can be. And you know what? If what we are told in canon – that Rodney "is deathly allergic to citrus" – is true, then what John did is unbelievably cruel and out of line. That shit is fucked up.

But that's not what the rest of the show is telling us. The rest of the show, the part that isn't straight-up, real world verifiable facts, is telling us that everyone laughs about this. Rodney laughs about this. And there really isn't that much canon support for Rodney being genuinely fucking freaked about having maybe eaten citrus. He just doesn't act like a guy with death lurking in every meal. He's way too banter-y about it. There's just no way I buy that within this show, a citrus allergy is something around which to build a betrayal. It's not that the angry fen are wrong! It's just that, well, we're looking at a different set of data.

Mood:: 'optimistic' optimistic
There are 45 comments on this entry. (Reply.)
 
posted by [identity profile] timian.livejournal.com at 12:00am on 01/08/2006
This is my favorite post on the bitter lemon of doom. Coolness.
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posted by [identity profile] kalpurna.livejournal.com at 12:07am on 01/08/2006
Yay! I win at lemons! *gloats*
 
posted by [identity profile] joandarck.livejournal.com at 12:19am on 01/08/2006
Very well put. It's like how Due South, the show, wants to treat Vecchio's undercover time in Vegas as having been kind of fun really, while Due South fans, on the whole, want to treat it as the OMG TRAUMA it would have been in real life.

In Due South, I have an easy time going with show-reality - I'm happy to view everything as lightly as possible, except when they don't want us to, as in Victoria's Secret - while in Buffy it bugs me a lot more, but whatever.

Re: SGA, I'm just curious, is it canon that Rodney *actually* has a serious citrus allergy? Because so far I've seen one quick throwaway line about it that could easily have been a joke. But everyone's so sure about it that it seems like they must have gone back to it later.
 
posted by [identity profile] lydiabell.livejournal.com at 12:27am on 01/08/2006
Well, it's canon that he says he has a serious lemon allergy, and he's mentioned anaphylactic shock a couple of times. But he's also a pretty hyperbolic guy, so we don't really know. I don't think we've seen him be all *that* cautious about what he eats, which to me would indicate that he's exaggerating, but it's hard to say.
 
posted by [identity profile] joandarck.livejournal.com at 12:30am on 01/08/2006
Ha. Thought as much. Thanks!
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posted by [identity profile] kalpurna.livejournal.com at 01:10am on 01/08/2006
Yeah, perfect example. It's not how it would have ACTUALLY been, we feel, so we kind of want to fool with the way it seems to have played out in canon.

And I agree about Buffy being a harder pill to swallow; Due South and SGA are both pretty much happy places for me, and I'm a lot more willing to handwave in those fandoms. Hah, not to mention that in both SGA (the "science") and DS (the "magical realism"), you can't get BY without handwaving a little.

Canon!Rodney doesn't seem to actually have a serious allergy judging by his ACTIONS, but there have been quite a number of references to it *verbally*.
 
posted by [identity profile] joandarck.livejournal.com at 01:44am on 01/08/2006
Yeah - yeah, because on Buffy, there's a lot more drama and angst, but the levels at which you're supposed to take the characters seriously keep changing. (But will not begin to rant about the vampire thing because have headache already.) Whereas the SGA that I've seen so far - that's most of the first season I guess - consistently signals not to take anything seriously.
 
posted by [identity profile] empressvesica.livejournal.com at 12:36am on 14/08/2006
No, it really is canon that he does...just not Atlantis Canon. The very first time he appears as McKay is in the SG-1 epi, "48 Hours". He brings it up during a lunch conversation with Sam...

Hang on a mo...let me rummage about the 'net.

Ah HA!

CARTER
As a matter of fact, I do. Now what we need to do is find a way to establishing an event horizon without the vortex.

McKAY
'S impossible.

CARTER
I've seen it done before.

McKAY
Not by magical fairy beans...
(to the server)
Is there lemon on the chicken?

SERVER
It's lemon chicken.

McKAY
Huh! So it is. I'm mortally allergic to citrus. One drop of lemon and I could die. I'll have whatever that is.
(to Carter)
Gotta be very careful.

[They sit at a table where McKay starts wolfing his food.]



If I wasn't years and years behind watching SG:1, I probably woulnd't have remembered that moment from Season 5. As it is, I watched it 2 weeks ago. :)

Full Transcript here (http://www.stargate-sg1-solutions.com/wiki/index.php/5.14_%2248_Hours%22_Transcript#Transcript).
 
posted by [identity profile] joandarck.livejournal.com at 01:23am on 14/08/2006
Interesting! That does establish parameters. But, it also still sounds like a joke to me - like something we're not supposed to take as literal fact, whether he personally believes it or not. Just look at the contrast between "Gotta be very careful" and "I'll have whatever that is... [starts wolfing his food.]" It seems like they're trying to telegraph "amusingly controlling and fussy" rather than "lives life in daily danger of encountering wrong meal." But maybe it comes across differently when you watch it. Thanks for the reference!
 
posted by [identity profile] entropical87.livejournal.com at 12:23am on 01/08/2006
I am still so far behind on SGA so I have no idea what this whole lemon saga is about, but fandom experiencing a small implosion over it? Totally buy that. Oh, crazy intarwebs, what a jaded person you have made me.
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posted by [identity profile] kalpurna.livejournal.com at 01:12am on 01/08/2006
hee! We are predictable. It is sad but true.
 
posted by [identity profile] lydiabell.livejournal.com at 12:25am on 01/08/2006
Here via [livejournal.com profile] cesperanza.

I think this is brilliant. I do have a lot of trouble with this show vs. real world context problem when it comes to SGA. Not with the interaction between John and Rodney, because I've seen enough men* who were great friends be dicks to one another for me to accept that this is just how some show their love. :) But the numerous ethical issues sometimes make me wish I could forget about the real world and just accept the framework of the show for an hour a week.

* I originally mis-typed this as "mean", which I suppose is appropriate.
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posted by [identity profile] kalpurna.livejournal.com at 01:15am on 01/08/2006
Oh man, YES. And maybe that's why I'm so easy with Lemongate; it's like, guys! You accepted the insane ETHICS and the freaky SCIENCE and the stunted personality of the HERO, but you balk at the LEMON?

WHAT??

 
posted by [identity profile] mamoru22.livejournal.com at 09:01am on 01/08/2006
OMG yes!

My thought exactly. The show has given us so much f*d up canon and you concentrate on the Lemon?

Also, John's face when he hands over the lemon...funny. Sue me! *g*
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posted by [identity profile] kalpurna.livejournal.com at 02:50pm on 01/08/2006
Oh, his little face. <33333

I mean, don't get me wrong; I do think it's lame that they treat food allergies as hilarious hypochondria. But... *this* is what gets your backs up, fen?
 
posted by [identity profile] amireal.livejournal.com at 01:09am on 01/08/2006
I think that's why I've been caveating my whole annoyance. In other words, it all depends on context. If we do infact find out there's an allergy then it becomes a whole different story. Though in my mind I parse it down to 'well how bad of an allergy?' But if it's really a minor thing than I can swing with the whole 'It's a running gag that even Rodney likes because it means he's part of the crowd. He's got friends who care enough to rib him.'

Like I said, context is key and the writers never give us the one bit of information needed to place it specficially, they only give, what you were talking about, universal information.

Only, I just don't actually beleive the writers often think that hard about their narrative. *koff* that's neither here nor there.

So the argument comes in without any clear place of start and that's where all the different readings are coming from.
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posted by [identity profile] kalpurna.livejournal.com at 01:19am on 01/08/2006
Yeah, that's it: context isn't precise enough to place the exchange REALLY, so you can take it how you want to take it. For me, the show is better if I take it this way, and I'm also pretty sure that's what was intended. If more precise info surfaces later, then I'll revise my thinking.

WHAT? SG writers don't sit around for hours and hours without food or sleep, desperately revising tiny details of their character dynamics? I don't have to listen to this crazy talk.
 
posted by [identity profile] joandarck.livejournal.com at 01:33am on 01/08/2006
&hearts:&hearts:&hearts:&hearts:
 
posted by [identity profile] shihadchick.livejournal.com at 12:00pm on 01/08/2006
...what Joan said. *vows love, cheers, throws confetti etc*
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posted by [identity profile] kalpurna.livejournal.com at 02:52pm on 01/08/2006
*blows kisses*
 
posted by [identity profile] mecurtin.livejournal.com at 03:27am on 01/08/2006
I just put up a poll (http://mecurtin.livejournal.com/355104.html) to track the division in question.

ITA about the show's-attitude/real-world split cutting across all kinds of fandoms. It can only be exacerbated by the observable fact that most TV people don't let their brains get out much. Thus, for instance, the SGA writers can use "talks about his food allergies" as character-shorthand to show that Rodney is self-involved and overdramatizing, because that's what "food allergies" are code for in their world.
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posted by [identity profile] kalpurna.livejournal.com at 03:45am on 01/08/2006
I went and filled it out! I am curious about this whole divide. Oh, fandom, may you never cease to brim with drama.

Thus, for instance, the SGA writers can use "talks about his food allergies" as character-shorthand to show that Rodney is self-involved and overdramatizing, because that's what "food allergies" are code for in their world.

I think that is right on the money. Just... exactly. Yes.
 
posted by [identity profile] joandarck.livejournal.com at 04:49am on 01/08/2006
Geeky, too - talking about allergies is geeky. The verbal equivalent of having tape holding your glasses together.
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posted by [identity profile] kalpurna.livejournal.com at 04:52am on 01/08/2006
Word. UGH SG WRITERS. Why you gotta make me hit you?
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posted by [identity profile] kalpurna.livejournal.com at 04:53am on 01/08/2006
Also: hello, what exactly do you think your fan base is? COOL JOCKS?
 
posted by [identity profile] ravenclaw-devi.livejournal.com at 06:46am on 01/08/2006
You might be onto something there. After all, Daniel was also "the geek" and an allergy sufferer (hay fever, wasn't it?).

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posted by [identity profile] kalpurna.livejournal.com at 05:23pm on 01/08/2006
Hmm, I'm not that familiar with SG1 canon, but I would not be surprised. Oh man, Stargate – you do KNOW that you're a sci-fi show, right? You do REALIZE that most of your fans are big fat geeks? So why do you keep acting like nerds are losers with taped glasses and inhalers?

Hey, wow, metafandom! *preens*
 
posted by [identity profile] beck-liz.livejournal.com at 10:46pm on 01/08/2006
Yes. *snerk* As I recall, Jack once checked on Daniel's status by tossing a box of tissues through the Stargate.

 
posted by [identity profile] ravenclaw-devi.livejournal.com at 11:13pm on 01/08/2006
Yes, I remember that well. :D
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posted by [identity profile] kalpurna.livejournal.com at 03:07am on 02/08/2006
Hee! I don't really watch SG1, but that actually sounds kind of cute. What ep/season?
 
posted by [identity profile] ravenclaw-devi.livejournal.com at 06:51am on 02/08/2006
Right at the beginning, in "Children of the Gods."
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posted by [identity profile] kalpurna.livejournal.com at 04:50pm on 02/08/2006
Hmm, I might have to check that out...
 
posted by [identity profile] joandarck.livejournal.com at 04:52am on 02/08/2006
That's so cute!
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posted by [identity profile] http://users.livejournal.com/tesserae_/ at 12:58pm on 01/08/2006
character-shorthand to show that Rodney is self-involved and overdramatizing, because that's what "food allergies" are code for in their world

Oh, yes yes yes - esp. here in L.A., where expressing one's diva-hood through obscure food taboos is canon as well. And I read both the lemon bit *and* the herb bit in Irresistible as basically alpha-guy behaviour - teasing between equals - because the guys I grew up with would absolutely have done that kind of thing to each other. Which I think reflects the writers' culture, if not necessarily Atlantis'.
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posted by [identity profile] kalpurna.livejournal.com at 04:53pm on 01/08/2006
Yeah, I think that's dead-on. There are things that my guy friends do with each other that I would be shocked and appalled if one of my girl friends did to me.

OMG, there must be an Rodney icon out there with "DIVA" on it. There MUST. The world could not be so cruel as to not contain that icon.
 
posted by [identity profile] sg-lab.livejournal.com at 06:57pm on 01/08/2006
There are things that my guy friends do with each other that I would be shocked and appalled if one of my girl friends did to me.

That is so true. There are times I don't think most of fandom understands guys. I've seen it in so many different fandoms.

I took the whole sharing the lemon thing with Mitchell as maybe not the most thoughtful thing to do, but so not a world is coming to an end (or friendship is coming to an end in this case) apocolyptic moment.
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posted by [identity profile] kalpurna.livejournal.com at 03:08am on 02/08/2006
Fair point. I mean, the truth is, fandom is pretty much girl city. Even when we don't girl up our guys characterization-wise, it's reasonable to assume we'll sometimes be baffled by them, just as we are by guys in real life. Come on! Sometimes stuff guys do makes NO SENSE!
 
posted by [identity profile] sg-lab.livejournal.com at 03:16am on 02/08/2006
That is so true. Guys are a mystery at times. Then again I'm sure us gals are as much a mystery to them. :D
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posted by [identity profile] kalpurna.livejournal.com at 03:18am on 02/08/2006
Hee, true enough! *g*
 
posted by [identity profile] shihadchick.livejournal.com at 11:59am on 01/08/2006
Your icon is kind of one of the best things ever. Definitely top ten. And yay, I'm so insanely relieved - after stumbling onto some of the more extreme opinion posts by mistake - that most of the people I know/interact with are more or less treating the show like you are, because just... it's so much saner (and less mental wear-and-tear, too, I think) to be able to realise there's these different perspectives and that can be how we're meant to see it as opposed to how we actually are and, okay, i'm not expressing this well at all, but: smart post, made me think and quite happy, and yeah. But, wow, I really wish I still had my U2!lemon icon right now. HEE.
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posted by [identity profile] kalpurna.livejournal.com at 05:02pm on 01/08/2006
OMG I love my icon. It's by [livejournal.com profile] astolat here (http://astolat.livejournal.com/113722.html). I'm so glad my post made you happy! And I'm equally glad that the LEMON DRAMA seems to be fading from the flist, to be replaced largely by shrugs and giggles. I mean, seriously, guys. THIS is our wank? A frickin' lemon?
 
posted by [identity profile] brak666.livejournal.com at 01:15pm on 01/08/2006
Working as a nurse, I once met a woman who had listed among her many allergies "gravy, mixed vegetables, and all fish except broiled haddock". Rodney reminds me of her in a lot of ways.
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posted by [identity profile] kalpurna.livejournal.com at 05:18pm on 01/08/2006
Hee, DEFINITELY a Rodney avatar! "Except broiled haddock", that's hilarious. *g* Maybe it was Jeannie McKay.
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posted by [identity profile] wemblee.livejournal.com at 06:07am on 02/08/2006
Word, word, word. Thank you.
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posted by [identity profile] kalpurna.livejournal.com at 04:54pm on 02/08/2006
You're welcome! *g* Seriously, I'm so glad people seem to be leaning towards this side of the argument; I was getting worried about all the angst.

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