Recently, the Due South fandom had its first wank since... maybe the Ray Wars? I don't know. Basically, it was fairly overblown by fandom_wank (SHOCKED FACE), and as far as I know not that many people got angry about it, at least in public, and anyway it would have been considered a slow day in HP fandom. Nevertheless, it's kind of a milestone, I think, because we're normally oh so careful what we say in DS.
I should start off by saying that I think people on fandom_wank were less fair to
aukestrel than they should have been. Not only because, frankly, Due South is a more OTP-laden canon than other fandoms have to deal with (I'm sorry, but I'm a lot more sympathetic toward this rant being about Fraser/Kowalski than if it were about Harry/Draco), but also because I have a hunch that what she said is not that far from what a lot of us feel about certain things.
Here's the thing. Even though I would never, ever say this to anyone's face, because I'm not confrontational online, there is definitely a part of me that feels the same way she does about Ray/Ray. And about F/V/K, and about Rodney/Carson, and incest pairings. And that little part of me doesn't say, "What you're doing is not my cup of tea, but That's OK, Because I'm a Reasonable and Tolerant Fangirl." It says, "What you're doing is STUPID AND WRONG AND YOU ARE WRONG SHUT UP." I don't particularly like it, but it's there, and I have a fair bit of confidence that most people in fandom feel that way about something, some issue.
If someone says shitty things about Fraser, I don't just feel bad because they're insulting my taste in characters: I feel bad because I feel like they're insulting someone who means a lot to me, a friend of mine who has mattered in my life. And yes, that sounds a little crazycakes. But... you're in fandom too. And I think you know what I mean.
And that, I'm pretty sure, is a good thing. Fandom is all about caring more than other people do, about looking at characters and seeing them as people, about loving fiction, about taking those Velveteen Rabbits and making them real, treating them with seriousness and with care. If you don't get worked up about something in fandom, I don't want to know you. The one thing about fandom_wank that makes me absolutely sick is that they keep their fucking distance. FANDOM IS NOT ABOUT KEEPING YOUR DISTANCE. Fandom is not about keeping your distance.
But the discussion that didn't happen as a result of her post, and I think it's interesting that it didn't, is the conversation we as fandom might need to have about civility. I mean absolutely no disrespect to
aukestrel when I say this, because, again, I think she said what she felt and I absolutely understand why she felt that way, but I think DS fandom would be a very different place if there were posts like that every day of the week. And I think that needs to be acknowledged.
The question we maybe need to be asking is, "Why should we be careful with our speech in fandom?" After all, it's the internet! Sockpuppets abound, and it's not like we'll ever have to come face to face with most of the people we talk to. Why does it matter whether or not we act gracious about the pairings or kinks or, let's face it, people we think are wrong wrong wrong?
The thing is, though, it's a pretty easy question to answer. We should be careful with our speech because our speech is all we have. We are on the internet, we do have a limited amount of interaction and accountability, and that's why we need to take great care with what we say and with how we say it: because that's all we've got. The internet is an extraordinarily difficult medium in which to communicate adequately, what with its lack of body language and facial expressions and inflection, and therefore courtesy does not come easily. Language is all we've got, and we don't even have the full run of that.
I was amused by the commenter over at fandom_wank who derided
aukestrel's frequent use of caps and italics, because that's one of my favorite things about DS; the degree to which we try and convey conversational tone through text. Paul Gross arms, baby! \o/ Fandom at large needs more ways to convey EMPHASIS and sarcasm, not fewer; we're trying to have, as I pointed out above, a pretty intimate conversation, in a medium that's textual and public. It's difficult, you guys! We're trying really hard!
And I do give you an E for Effort, fandom. The comments to her post were unbelievably civil, by any standards; I especially liked
justbreathe80's comment, and the ensuing thread. It would have been very easy for people to go "OMG U R MEEN," and largely, they didn't.
Unfortunately, I think the real underpinning of the problem with that post, the reason that people got pretty hurt by it, was that
aukestrel insisted on taking the argument away from the pairing and toward the people who write the pairing, calling them sheep and popularity-seekers and lazy writers. And I have to draw a distinction here between stuff that is okay to think, and stuff that is okay to say. I, personally, think Republican views are WRONG. I think they are INCORRECT and also HURTING AMERICA. But at Thanksgiving Dinner with my born-again-Christian aunt, I don't bring that up. I talk about it privately with my friends, and I don't think that makes me somehow morally bankrupt.
I guess what I'm saying is that the nature of fannishness is such that sometimes, we all go a little batshit. But there's a good way and a bad way to deal with our small moments of freakin' out, and I'm personally glad DS fandom tends to choose the politer route. There's a Cult of Nice? Oh good, sign me up.
ETA: Hee! I was curious about the last time we got wanked, so I went and found it (October 2005). Here's a quote from the report: It's all pretty polite but this is as wanky as this fandom gets these days. ♥ ♥ ♥
ETA2: AHAHAHA. Here's the last one before THAT (September 2003): ...and really, the posts are surprisingly calm and well reasoned and non-wanky or flamey. We win!
I should start off by saying that I think people on fandom_wank were less fair to
Here's the thing. Even though I would never, ever say this to anyone's face, because I'm not confrontational online, there is definitely a part of me that feels the same way she does about Ray/Ray. And about F/V/K, and about Rodney/Carson, and incest pairings. And that little part of me doesn't say, "What you're doing is not my cup of tea, but That's OK, Because I'm a Reasonable and Tolerant Fangirl." It says, "What you're doing is STUPID AND WRONG AND YOU ARE WRONG SHUT UP." I don't particularly like it, but it's there, and I have a fair bit of confidence that most people in fandom feel that way about something, some issue.
If someone says shitty things about Fraser, I don't just feel bad because they're insulting my taste in characters: I feel bad because I feel like they're insulting someone who means a lot to me, a friend of mine who has mattered in my life. And yes, that sounds a little crazycakes. But... you're in fandom too. And I think you know what I mean.
And that, I'm pretty sure, is a good thing. Fandom is all about caring more than other people do, about looking at characters and seeing them as people, about loving fiction, about taking those Velveteen Rabbits and making them real, treating them with seriousness and with care. If you don't get worked up about something in fandom, I don't want to know you. The one thing about fandom_wank that makes me absolutely sick is that they keep their fucking distance. FANDOM IS NOT ABOUT KEEPING YOUR DISTANCE. Fandom is not about keeping your distance.
But the discussion that didn't happen as a result of her post, and I think it's interesting that it didn't, is the conversation we as fandom might need to have about civility. I mean absolutely no disrespect to
The question we maybe need to be asking is, "Why should we be careful with our speech in fandom?" After all, it's the internet! Sockpuppets abound, and it's not like we'll ever have to come face to face with most of the people we talk to. Why does it matter whether or not we act gracious about the pairings or kinks or, let's face it, people we think are wrong wrong wrong?
The thing is, though, it's a pretty easy question to answer. We should be careful with our speech because our speech is all we have. We are on the internet, we do have a limited amount of interaction and accountability, and that's why we need to take great care with what we say and with how we say it: because that's all we've got. The internet is an extraordinarily difficult medium in which to communicate adequately, what with its lack of body language and facial expressions and inflection, and therefore courtesy does not come easily. Language is all we've got, and we don't even have the full run of that.
I was amused by the commenter over at fandom_wank who derided
And I do give you an E for Effort, fandom. The comments to her post were unbelievably civil, by any standards; I especially liked
Unfortunately, I think the real underpinning of the problem with that post, the reason that people got pretty hurt by it, was that
I guess what I'm saying is that the nature of fannishness is such that sometimes, we all go a little batshit. But there's a good way and a bad way to deal with our small moments of freakin' out, and I'm personally glad DS fandom tends to choose the politer route. There's a Cult of Nice? Oh good, sign me up.
ETA: Hee! I was curious about the last time we got wanked, so I went and found it (October 2005). Here's a quote from the report: It's all pretty polite but this is as wanky as this fandom gets these days. ♥ ♥ ♥
ETA2: AHAHAHA. Here's the last one before THAT (September 2003): ...and really, the posts are surprisingly calm and well reasoned and non-wanky or flamey. We win!
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AMEN!
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(which is YAY.)
Your point on politeness - it's just - in my head, it falls into the concept of just because you CAN do something, doesn't mean you SHOULD. I try to take that into account whenever I'm feeling wanky, and it usually works.
the cult of nice! Fraser would so approve!
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and, dude, we TOTALLY all have times when we're feeling wanky! IT HAPPENS. WE WANK A LITTLE IN OUR HEARTS.
Fraser is a founding member of the Cult of Nice! It only takes an extra moment to be courteous, Tracey! \o/
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That's it in a nutshell. And I'm getting freaking tired of people making it about everything but this...b/c in the end, that's what it is about...investment in the characters, the shows, the stories, one another...
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i'm relatively new to dS and i must say that's one of my favs too.. it's just so cute -- the first few times i saw it, i barely figured out what PG arms were, and i just smiled the goofiest smile in about 3 years.. i've never come across such a mellow and yet *winsome* group of fangirls (most of my previous fandoms fall into either juvenile OR placid) ... dS somehow is both full of vitality and yet doesn't get "in-your-face" about its cuteness.
♥
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*regrets it almost immediately*
You know, I've drifted off from dS fandom because all the BNFs got sucked into SGA, but I've always seen it as a happy, friendly place. Then I am reminded that all fandom is batshit beneath the surface.
And also:
I would have thought that the dS wankers metaphorical dicks would have fallen off by now considering the frequency and vigorousness of their wanking. dS was my first fandom and it sent me screaming off into the night quite some time ago.
Um, okay, I've only been in this fandom for about three months, but I'm pretty sure I'm justified in saying: what the fuck? This does not sound like any due South fandom I recognize.
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Not liking a certain pairing? Totally a-okay, and honestly, it's probably the default setting for a lot of fans. It seems as though most people have a favourite pairing, whether or not they consider it their one TRUE pairing. And yes, I expect fics featuring specific pairings to be rec'ed with the pairing clearly labelled, so it's not like I disagree with the intended point of
There is a bit of a difference, though, between having that visceral "OMG, bad pairing! Bad pairing!" reaction and slinging names at people who write the pairing. Calling writers popularity-seeking, fad-writing sheep for playing with a pairing seems to cross the line. As does saying that a given pairing necessitates that one or more characters be completely OOC, because I get that enough from my anti-slash friends.
I like dS fandom rather a lot. Partly because of the seriously slashy canon, partly because of the "we're the nice fandom" conversation that pops up all over the comms. And partly because, when I first started poking around on LJ for ds fandom, it seemed so OPEN.
I love what seems to be the default pairing for most dS slash fans - Fraser and RayK? Not getting old at all. But at heart, I am an alternative pairings fan. Largely because, in a prior foray into anime fandom, I found that the alt pairing writers worked harder, because they knew they had to convince their readers, whereas standard pairing writers were tapping into this vast library of existing belief in their pairing and could afford to use sloppy shorthand to build the relationship. Unfortunately, alternative pairing authors in that anime fandom were made often to feel unwelcome on the larger lists, because they didn't play to the OTP. I found it hard to find the fics, and harder still to get in touch with active mls or comms.
At the time I came to ds on LJ, there was a lot of F/K flying around, plus rather extensive archives of F/K (the F/V I had to hunt for). And then there was a lot of Ray/Ray and F/K/V popping up, and although there was quite a bit of "I don't get it" and "SOOOO not my thing" posting going on, there wasn't any public vitriol being directed toward the authors themselves. And I thought, 'This is the place to be. Screw that shipping war nonsense.'
Which - that particular rant and a few of its commenters aside- I expect to continue to be the case. Because this IS the nice fandom. Even when it's members occasionally have something to get of their chests.
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I, of course, will never touch that lovely writing with a ten foot pole ever the end, but. I do not get angry about this out loud! for lo, we are the nice fandom.
*sticks tongue out at fandom_wank*
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and, yes. I think it's important to be tidy, and to be polite, and to avoid being offensive when you can do so (which, as far as I'm concerned, is always), because this is a big sandbox, sure, but it's still a public playground, you know? and part of public property is the public responsibility to take care of that and play nice and share the shovels and take turns on the swingset and...yeah. And, sure, I'm fairly (or, um, extremely) conflict-averse, and I don't get into arguments even when I maybe should, but still: playing nice is important! and it doesn't make you a sissy.
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Don't Piss in the Sandbox: my fandom motto.
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That said, I'm not one to judge
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we are so polite in our wanking, it fills me with joy.
p.s. icon loooove
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I don't see why people shouldn't rant and express their feelings every now and then, if it's in a private space, you know? but I totally see your point about that changing the overall atmosphere if people did it a lot.
The first fandom I got involved with was a lot less friendly than Due South, and expressing any kind of opinion was really dangerous, because everyone was looking to fight all the time. So, I tend to be blunter about things now than I would have, just because I'm so excited that I can. I can say "F/K/V makes my skin crawl" and figure that my dear friends who write and read F/K/V understand that I have no problem with the fact that they love that shit, and that I wouldn't stop them if I could. (...Maybe I'm wrong about that? But I go on that assumption.)
There are other opinions I have had on occasion that I *would* expect to offend people, and, ya know, I don't say them. Not because I feel like I can't, but because fighting and stirring shit up just isn't what I'm here for.
I've seen people complaining that dS fandom is *too* nice, that it's stifling, but personally, part of why I try to be polite is because I don't feel like we're being forced to be Stepford Fans -- I can say what I'm thinking, and that's okay -- so there's room to *choose* to be decent company. We're all here for the love, like you said.
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We are SO OKAY with people saying stuff like that, actually, that it's kind of weird. I see rants and paeans all the time in DS that I totally, utterly disagree with, and it's just... okay! back button! scroll quickly with one hand over the eyes! It's just when people say stuff about the PEOPLE WHO SAY STUFF, that... omg, I need to stop saying the word "stuff" and go take a nap. Criticizing pairings = okay, criticizing people = not so much.
I do see the Stepford Fans criticism, but I'm just really unconvinced that that's what's happening in DS. You know? Like you said, it's about choice; no one's forcing you to be friendly, and we'll take it in stride if you aren't (no mass defriendings, no bannination), but we'd all prefer it if you did. Much like the real world! Actually!
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That idea, which you expressed in other words in this post, is why I'm here. And it's one of the passions that got me into Chicago because that's a line from one of my essays XP
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Considering how large dS fandom is, considering how quickly it moves - we wank (in that dark, nasty little way) once every few months. More like twice a year. We're the caring, sharing fandom - and sure, we're all completely insane, but that's the fun part. \o/
I've had about three instances where I have immediately regretted pushing my usual default decision of being the Fraser of fandom to the side. It's just easier to express yourself in a way which is respectful - even if, in the deep recesses of your mind you're thinking "I THINK YOU'RE TACKY AND I HATE YOU! YOU'RE BAD AND YOU SHOULD FEEL BAD!" Okay, so in some ways it's a little bit disingenuous, but you need to pick your battles in fandom, and you need to pick your armour and weaponry accordingly.
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In the long run, it just tends to work out better if you're respectful of people. Even though that's what you're thinking inside. Honestly, I think the big problem is people thinking that fandom interactions are somehow different than real world interactions. You still have to be courteous, even if it's the internet! For the same reasons!
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OMG, no, it TOTALLY counts if you are batshit in other regards! All I require is a modicum of batshittery. If you have ever said to yourself, "OK, I know it's just a TV show, but omg Paul learn your own canon Fraser totally knows how to dance," and really been pretty pissed about it even if you pretended like it was no big deal, that TOTALLY counts. Bonus points if you then made up an elaborate justification for canon ("Fraser is embarrassed dancing because he's in the UNIFORM and it's INAPPROPRIATE!") ♥
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And now I'm thinking that maybe we are the Nice Fandom because of Fraser, because when your canon places emphasis on respect for others, on justice, on a fair go... well, if the fans aren't moved by and motivated by these things then why are they here?
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OMG, I love that theory! I love the idea that deep deep in our hearts, we really DO believe that it only takes an extra moment to be courteous! *INFINITE HEARTS* Fraser, my darling, you have INFECTED us! That's so funny, because I once read someone talking about DS fandom taking its politeness cues from Canadian culture, and I remember feeling vaguely that it... wasn't exactly on the mark. Now, I know what the problem was! We aren't taking cues from CANADA. We're taking them from FRASER.
*laughs at you*
Here from metafandom
Re: Here from metafandom
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It's fine to talk about what fandom is for you, but when you say fandom is taking those Velveteen Rabbits and making them real, I am boggled. That's so far from my fandom that it's like Opposite Land.
I'm fine with agreeing to disagree, I just want you to understand that other people can be perfectly happy fans with entirely different views. And when you imply we're BAD FANS, it's annoying.
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Very few other people are personally insulted when someone disses their favorite character.
I'm pretty sure that's not true. Yeah, most of us self-censor before saying "omg John Sheppard is a SAINT you SLUTBAG", which is kind of my point, but in my experience, a lot of people feel this way a little bit. You know?
Oh, wait, or maybe I came off as saying "only canon whores are real fans"? Because I can see why this essay might give that impression, in retrospect, and that's certainly not what I meant to imply. I just think that if there isn't something here that you love, that you get a little crazycakes over sometimes in your head, that, well... I don't know, I just don't see why you'd stay. And I wanted to stand up for, a little bit, or try to explain why (I personally think) it's a pretty commonplace thing for fans to have wanky moments.
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One reason I keep coming back to dS is that it is a happy, happy fandom with little of the wankery that kills fandom interest for me. My fellow fans are nice!
The other is "Dude! Buddy breathing! Dogsledding off into the sunrise!
Subtext!"*snuggles her happy fandom*
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I'm happy to be a member of the Cult of Nice, regardless of what fandom I'm currently in love with. I like to think Fraser would be proud....
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*Fraser gives you a MEDAL OF NICE*
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♥ dS fandom, you know? We are very nice! Except when we're not, but honestly, when I have my bitchface days? I do it under heavy lock and filter. Like your Thanksgiving with the Republicans.
I do take exception to the idea that fandom is all about passion for some aspect of canon, though. I have never been what I would call "passionate" about canon for most of my fandoms. Possibly not for any of them, depending on your definition of passion. I don't, in fact, get worked up about anything fannish, really. I am passionate about fandom as a community, but that's different. And that doesn't mean I need to leave, or shut up; I just do fandom differently than you do. If that means you don't want to know me, then that's okay too - I just thought it was funny to find that sort of "MY WAY OR THE HIGHWAY" rhetoric in a post about how we really should be polite and not impose our irrational emotional feelings about fandom on the fannish conversation.
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Well, I mean, I hope I didn't muddy my point with my rhetoric, which it seems like I might have done. But I didn't mean to imply that fandom is all about passion for some aspect of canon, so much as that fandom is all about passion; passion which sometimes causes us to react inappropriately for social situations. Such as when my RL friends imply that fandom is for fat losers in basements, and my immediate reaction is "SO IS YOUR DUMB FACE DUMB-O." My post was mostly meant to defend the natural tendency to feel that way about fannish things, because fandom is – I really do think – all about over-investment in stuff, and to explain why I don't think that such reactions, while understandable, need to make it to public posts as a general rule.
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Fandom is all about caring more than other people do, about looking at characters and seeing them as people, about loving fiction, about taking those Velveteen Rabbits and making them real, treating them with seriousness and with care.
Wellllll... to a degree. Yes, fandom is about being passionate about the object of fannish devotion (that's the difference between a fan and, I don't know, a casual viewer), but IMHO, there is such a thing as taking fandom too seriously. The moment you're willing to destroy friendships with real people (and yes, there are a real people on the other end of the internet) over differing opinions about fictional characters, you've crossed the line into batshit.
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