kalpurna: (f/k top)
Add MemoryShare This Entry
posted by [personal profile] kalpurna at 09:22am on 07/02/2007 under ,
I really, fundamentally don't get fic or pairings where one partner is defined as being always the top, or always the bottom. [Disclaimer: this does not mean that I have not read and adored particular fics of this type, only that I had to overcome my issues to like them.] I guess you could call this a squick, of a sort, except that it's not a knee-jerk EWW reaction, so much as a pervasive sense of discomfort.

I don't believe that sexual positions necessarily echo power in a relationship. I just don't. I think that someone can absolutely love getting fucked, and still be loud, forceful, and masculine. Hell, there are certainly women who wear the pants in their heterosexual relationship who don't want to peg their boyfriends. It's penetration, not a set of handcuffs. I also don't really understand the idea of a slash couple that never switches. Even if there are preferences, I still would think that sometimes, you feel like taking a walk on the other side of the fence. They can both feel good, right? And from time to time, I'd think everyone is in the mood to get fucked, regardless of what they usually prefer, or what their genitalia are.

It also bothers me on a political level, a bit; the whole butch/femme dynamic is so very heteronormative, mapping a traditional heterosexual power relationship onto a queer couple. I can absolutely get that you might skew towards one gender paradigm – I myself very much like wearing pretty dresses and heels and earrings – but I really don't understand how you couldn't sometimes feel like putting on dirty jeans and moving furniture or something. SOMETIMES, you know? And I guess the real crucial thing here, the key to my discontent, is that if you *are* entirely 100% all the time a submissive feminized bottom, then I think that's got to at least partially be a choice and a kink, something you're doing deliberately because it gets your rocks off to play that game.

And that particular game is not all that interesting to me. Because that isn't my kink. I'm also not particularly into D/s relationships in fic. This might be because for me to believe that, I really do have to be walking out onto a ledge of fantasy, a ledge where yeah, some real people choose to live their lives – but it's THEIR fantasy, not mine.

I guess what really squicks me is when characterization *is* the fantasy, instead of supporting a story about two real people *playing* with fantasy, or thrust into a fantasy situation By Means Of Plot. (Hi, aliens who made them do it!) Second Skin is the latter type; I have no particular interest in crossdressing, but I sure as hell want to read about JOHN being insanely turned on by crossdressing. Whereas a lot of badfic, and even a lot of well-done hardcore BDSM stuff, is really the AUTHOR'S fantasy. It has nothing to do with the characters really, they're just actors putting on a sexy show for the author and the readers both. Which I'm only sometimes on board for, and only when it happens to be my kink, and only, only in the shallowest of ways. They can be, um, useful? But when I'm done, I have no real interest in the story beyond that. It's porn in the men's-magazine sense.

As you might expect, I also have issues with Yaoi. (Some Yaoi fic is excellent, of course; my issues are with the Yaoi establishment, such as it is.) Seme/uke? PLEASE. That, to me, has no relationship to the real world at all, and real people are what I find sexy. Even if all gay couples did comprise a tall, dark-haired, serious, older guy and a blond, mischievous, short younger guy (who likes ramen), I still wouldn't want to read endless stories about them, because OMG boring. The fact that the notation of Yaoi pairings revolves around who gets fucked by whom revolts me. It's all the fucked-upness of patriarchy, without even including a female character! AWESOME.

Oh, oh, here's my point, maybe: if you force your characters into a classic D/s, top/bottom relationship, then you will appeal to other people who enjoy fantasizing about that kind of relationship. But if you write a fic in which *your characters*, your real-world, recognizable characters, enjoy fantasizing about, and playing with, that dynamic, then you might well appeal to people who don't share your kink. Or, hell, don't make it a big deal at all who fucks who. But don't expect me to believe that greedy-little-slutty-bottoms are not someone's kink – and if your fic is going to impress me, than it's probably the character's, rather than the author's.

Lolita is sort of the same thing, on some level, maybe. Little girls are not Nabokov's thing, and as a general rule, they're not the reader's thing. They're Humbert Humbert's thing. And yet Nabokov does such a good job of conveying that lust that I actually had to put the book down midway through, because I was so uncomfortable with the way it made me feel, the degree to which I was identifying with Humbert's desires. That's a compliment.

[A final disclaimer: if you're on my flist, then you're there because I love your writing and/or you yourself, and this essay is not talking about you. Even if you're not on my flist, it's a pretty sure bet this essay is not talking about you. Mostly, this essay is talking about me.]
Mood:: 'pensive' pensive
There are 80 comments on this entry. (Reply.)
 
posted by [identity profile] shoemaster.livejournal.com at 05:19pm on 07/02/2007
I had never considered the idea that guys would NEVER switch, until my friend told me about the wank in the Naruto fandom. Those people are nuts, as far as I'm concerned. I think maybe due South is unique (for a million reasons but here, too) because I have read more than one fic where the guys fight over who gets to bottom.

I also can't stand slash that ALWAYS follows the blow job -> penetration route. That just gets boring.
ext_7824: Greta Salpeter (Default)
posted by [identity profile] kalpurna.livejournal.com at 05:40pm on 07/02/2007
Yeah, what the hell is that? I don't know, I just feel like you'd get bored. If I had a dick and slept with dudes, I would definitely not limit myself in any way! Think of the possibilities! (Hmm, I guess we already have...)
 
posted by [identity profile] joandarck.livejournal.com at 05:35pm on 07/02/2007
You know, I was just thinking about something sort of like this recently - the way people say "a top" or "a bottom." Taking it from a verb to a noun makes it sound so locked-down and defining, doesn't it? Would that make all non-pegging, intercourse-having straight women "bottoms" getting "topped" by men then? It makes sense that some people would prefer one or the other, but defining a whole identity that way feels weird.

On the butch-femme thing, I know a lot of people who joke about it but don't take it seriously, sort of like astrology. At the same, though, mostly they seem to have seized on their particular relationship to traditional feminity and won't vary from it, and tend to get uncomfortable if you vary from however they've pegged you. It seems like roles just get in under your guard whether you want them to or not.
ext_7824: Greta Salpeter (Default)
posted by [identity profile] kalpurna.livejournal.com at 05:47pm on 07/02/2007
Yeah, that's it exactly; the nouning of these things is always a problem. (Look, it's A Gay!) If people have a preference, I get that. But it's still a preference, you know? Your relationship to penetration isn't your whole identity.

I'm not sure I get what you're saying, exactly – is it that lots of people tend to seize onto roles for themselves, even if they're pretty liberated? Or is it that people tend to pick out roles for others? Because I think both of those are probably true to some extent, but I'm not sure which you meant.
 
posted by [identity profile] lovelokest.livejournal.com at 06:00pm on 07/02/2007
I don't either. One of the things that drove me absolutely nuts in SG1 fandom was that most of the time, Daniel exclusively bottomed. And the frequent feminization of Daniel because he bottomed. *facepalms*

I don't believe that sexual positions necessarily echo power in a relationship.

I'm a huge fan of topping from the bottom stories for that reason, the traditional sexual power rolls are switched, and that is a whole hell of a lot more interesting for me to read.

Very interesting and thought provoking post!
ext_7824: Greta Salpeter (Default)
posted by [identity profile] kalpurna.livejournal.com at 06:07pm on 07/02/2007
AARGH I KNOW.

Oh, wow, I love topping from the bottom. There's some great John/Rodney in that vein, I believe, on both sides of the equation – which in their case is awesome characterization, I think. Both love to get fucked, both can't shut up or stop arguing to save their lives. ;)

Thank you!
 
posted by [identity profile] monroe-nell.livejournal.com at 10:16pm on 07/02/2007
One of the things that drove me absolutely nuts in SG1 fandom was that most of the time, Daniel exclusively bottomed.

...I think we were in two different parts (okay, I wasn't in fandom for SG1, I just read the fics) of the fandom.... All the fics I read seemed to turn Daniel into a slut that slept with everyone. And 95% of the BDSM fics I ran across had Daniel as the dom from sheer "Jake is a virgin due to being in the military."

.............Yeah. I'm going to go back to rereading a Farm in Iowa.
 
posted by [identity profile] trinityofone.livejournal.com at 06:04pm on 07/02/2007
I agree with this whole-heartedly. Fic where there's lots and lots of sex, but one guy is always on the bottom kind of depresses me. It feels confining in a way that I really don't like—in a way that I read fic to get away from.

I don't want to hold up Queer as Folk (US) as the most realistic depiction of anything ever, 'cause it's not, but c'mon: even Brian Kinney, who's the world's toppiest top, takes it up the ass sometimes. EVEN BRIAN KINNEY TAKES IT UP THE ASS SOMETIMES. Think that should be our motto?
ext_7824: Greta Salpeter (Default)
posted by [identity profile] kalpurna.livejournal.com at 06:19pm on 07/02/2007
Ugh, confining is EXACTLY the right word. I'm not, like, demanding a 50-50 balance? But by the seventh time one person is giving it up for the other, I start to feel kind of icky and political and suspicious about author intent. It pulls me out of my fic bubble, damn it! These are things I have to worry about in real life, not in slash!

EVEN BRIAN KINNEY TAKES IT UP THE ASS SOMETIMES.

I WANT THAT T-SHIRT. \o/
(deleted comment)
ext_7824: Greta Salpeter (Default)
posted by [identity profile] kalpurna.livejournal.com at 06:57pm on 07/02/2007
See, I totally get having a preference. But I don't really understand carrying that preference over into, like, a LAW you can never diverge from, or a giant part of who you are. It's just, it's bodies! And parts! And as a woman, a sort of DEFAULT bottom, I don't really get why if you have the option, you wouldn't want to at least play around with it. Not to mention that it's kind of depressing to me that having shucked one culturally-prescribed role, people want to step right into another one.

Basically I'm saying it's weird to me too. *g*
 
posted by [identity profile] cimmerians.livejournal.com at 06:54pm on 07/02/2007
This is me, loving you again. [[loves]]

Okay, now that that's handled, I'd like to chip in with this: almost 100% of people's ideas about what reinforces masculinity or feminitity is disempowering, oppressive, or downright evil. I say this because of the butches I know who make themselves butcher by behaving like straight macho assholes, because of the transfolks I know who 'go het' and avoid their queer friends (or say gaybashing things around straights) so that they can pass more convincingly, and because of the femmes I know who behave remarkably like straight women in the self-loathing olympics.

All of which has nothing to do with buttsex, I know. Right. Sorry. I tangent easily.

I do need to say: one queer construct that really doesn't show up in most slash (because it doesn't really show up in most television) is the Sissy. I LOVE FLAMING QUEENIE SISSIES SO MUCH!!! And for many Sissies of my acquaintance, there is a social perception of being in the 'permanent catcher' position, which is not only untrue, but unfair. For the Sissies I've asked, most of them guess that this perception is inevitable since they've already exposed themselves to intense ridicule by being an overtly effeminate man. Makes me completely insane.

On Lolita: what a brilliant book that is! I'm so glad he published it when he did, because he'd never get it out now. And yes, his ability to generate empathy and sympathy for Humbert never fails to utterly kick my ass.

*mwah*
M.
ext_7824: Greta Salpeter (Default)
posted by [identity profile] kalpurna.livejournal.com at 07:20pm on 07/02/2007
I hate that queer people, people who already threw away some part of what society was telling them about gender and sexuality, then manage to still buy into some of the worst parts of it. AARGH.

I know hardly anything about Sissies, but they sound like people who know how to have fun with who they are, and fuck expectations. And it's SO LAME that people then just slip them into a different, equally confining mental category. Why we have so much trouble distinguishing "our bits and the things we do with them" from "who we are," I will never ever understand.

Lolita: SO AMAZING, and someday, I swear I will finish it. I was really surprised to find I couldn't deal, because I've read a lot of weird stuff in my time. But yeah, the way he creates empathy for Humbert is so very powerful, and I just... couldn't separate myself out enough, and it freaked me out. I'm trying again soon!

*loves you forever*
 
posted by [identity profile] pearl-o.livejournal.com at 08:04pm on 07/02/2007
I don't believe that sexual positions necessarily echo power in a relationship.

I totally agree with this, but it is a ttally different point than I thought you were going to make before I clicked on the cut tag, which brings up another point I think is kind of interesting in regards to fanfic, which is the ... sort of fetishization of equality, which. Yes, I totally want the boys (or girls) to be worthy of each other, because as you say, the really severely divided relationship isn't at interesting to me, and doesn't feel as real. BUT, if sexual relationships =/ end-all of power dynamics in the relationships, then why do the characters have to be strictly evenly divided in their sexual activities, you know? If being a bottom DOESN'T mean those power issues that are disturbing, then why do both boys have to be switch position guys each time, right? But there's some sort of taboo, almost, against having one of them be a pitcher and one a catcher, because ... I guess it's too hard to separate those assumptions? Hm.
ext_7824: Greta Salpeter (Default)
posted by [identity profile] kalpurna.livejournal.com at 08:31pm on 07/02/2007
I can't really remember reading a lot of stories where it gets explicitly pointed out that one character is "a bottom", or in which a lot of sex happens and one person always ends up on top, that don't ping weird buttons for me in regard to characterization and intent. It's not that I don't think a strict top/bottom relationship which avoids power issues can be done; it's just that I don't think it often is done well.

I definitely don't demand that they switch positions every time, it's just that... well, for instance, in [livejournal.com profile] eliade's fic Subtleties (http://www.drizzle.com/~eliade/subtleties.html), Spike and Xander are in the most power-unequal relationship EVER, in that Spike is Xander's live-in rentboy. And Xander likes to top, anyway, even if he weren't paying Spike. But fairly late on in the fic, there's still a scene where Spike fucks him, and he loves it, even though he still prefers to top, and does so more often than not. And that fic pings no weird buttons for me. I guess what I'm saying is that even when someone DOES have a real preference, which I get! I do! I still think that there's some level on which it's weird not to at least try the other side of things when you're having great sex with someone already.

And I think that in fic, which is not real life, an absolutely strict pitcher/catcher division of characters often goes hand in hand with a certain interpretation of power issues and roles. Because most of the time when authors write a relationship that way, it's not just a sex thing. Does that make any sense? I feel like I'm blithering quite a lot. :)

I bet a lot of authors are paranoid about running into this very issue, though, which might make them compulsively switch position each sex scene! I definitely agree that's a little silly.
 
posted by [identity profile] nos4a2no9.livejournal.com at 09:37pm on 07/02/2007
I think I've been spoiled in many, many ways, because dS is my first forray into reading slash and writing it. And this fandom manages to subvert or avoid a lot of the top/bottom cliches, and almost all of the BNFs have written stories that deliberately address kinks but seek to make it about the characters rather than the kinks themselves. (And the whole portion of your post devoted to a discussion of that was brilliant and articulated something I've never been quite able to put into words for myself).

And you're right to point out that the top/bottom dynamic functions in most slashfic as a way of transcribing het power dynamics and has little to do with sexual pleasure or gratification. I love dS fic to bits (except the bad!fic, of which I've read very little) because the whole top/bottom question is so often resolved in terms of what the characters need or want in a particular moment; everyone (F, K and V) is usually shown to be fairly flexible and I assume that's the way it must work in most m/m or f/f relationships, unless one party is (as you point out) strictly interested in D/s or pegging as their own personal kink of choice. Because always bottoming (and I use the term to denote the sexual position and not all the associated political/gender implications) would be very, very dull.

And I just realized I don't have anything constructive to offer at all. This whole response is just me nodding my head and going, "Exactly!"
ext_7824: Greta Salpeter (Default)
posted by [identity profile] kalpurna.livejournal.com at 07:11pm on 08/02/2007
I love my talented fandom so so much. ♥ It's funny how badfic seems to propagate more badfic, but good writing attracts even better writing. And thank you so much!

That is exactly what I meant. I don't care what real people do in bed at all, and I'm not demanding that characters have no preferences. But in slash, the "I am a Bottom" lapel pin seems to carry with it all this other baggage of power dynamics and protectiveness and ugh, it's just completely not my thing.

Thanks so much! I really appreciate knowing that other people feel the same way.
ext_3123: Ray Kowalski, slightly forlorn (Default)
posted by [identity profile] ifreet.livejournal.com at 10:20pm on 07/02/2007
I agree. I don't like the way top and bottom in terms of penetration get conflated with top and bottom in BDSM practice and then get conflated with who has the dominant personality in the relationship as a whole. I do sometimes enjoy BDSM in fic. But position, dom/sub role, and personality-as-a-whole are three different things, and need to be assessed separately.

I also like yaoi. But what you said about the whole seme/uke thing? Yep. Annoying. As more shounen ai/yaoi material is translated, I've discovered that the stereotypes just get wearisome. I still enjoy Western-in-origin yaoi fanfic, because I like certain characters and series and the way some authors write them. (And somehow I've managed to avoid most of the A/B versus B/A wanking, which makes me very happy.) But I don't like a lot of the original, professional shounen ai/yaoi from Japan, because I don't like the power and head games masquerading under the guise of true love. Though I still love that it exists as a commercially viable genre.
ext_7824: Greta Salpeter (Default)
posted by [identity profile] kalpurna.livejournal.com at 07:15pm on 08/02/2007
I definitely agree with that sentiment. BDSM is not my thing, but the fics I have enjoyed with BDSM played with all three of those factors separately, and did it with real thoughtfulness about characterization.

Also, yes yes yes about the Japanese pro/ Western fanfic distinction. It's probably to do with my cultural context and other such things, but as a rule? I get sketched out by this:

I don't like the power and head games masquerading under the guise of true love.

Which. Yes.
 
posted by [identity profile] carmarthen.livejournal.com at 02:24am on 08/02/2007
Even if there are preferences, I still would think that sometimes, you feel like taking a walk on the other side of the fence. They can both feel good, right?

They can both feel good, but not not necessarily for the same people.

To me, that's like saying it's impossible for a woman to never want to receive oral sex. While I occasionally do give it another try, I find it physically uncomfortable because of how my body's wired. I know a straight guy who likes anal stimulation, but it's always a bit painful for him, and I can imagine that another guy wouldn't be interested in putting up with that pain. Gay men don't have different anal wiring; some men find prostate stimulation uncomfortable. Period. Why would they ever want to bottom?

Why should gay men always be more flexible in their sexual preferences than women or straight men?

I'm not a big fan of reading about the butch/femme dynamic with any gender combo, but I see that as a separate issue from who's penetrating whom in bed.
ext_7824: Greta Salpeter (Default)
posted by [identity profile] kalpurna.livejournal.com at 07:27pm on 08/02/2007
I certainly don't claim that everyone in real life enjoys every kind of sex, and I didn't mean to imply that every gay man in the real world should switch. People's bodies are different, and they like different things, and I wouldn't presume to tell anyone what to do in bed.

But I wasn't really talking about real life. I was talking about slash fiction. And in slash, it strikes me as an odd choice to write a partner as being physically uncomfortable with bottoming (or topping), for the same reason that I'd find it weird to read a slash fic where one partner really dislikes giving blowjobs. Of course there are plenty of people who hate giving blowjobs in the real world. But why apply that to fic? It doesn't advance the plot, it doesn't advance the romance, and it doesn't help character development or make sex scenes hotter. It's just kind of unfortunate.

Given that we can give our characters any kind of wiring we want, why shouldn't we give both partners the ability to enjoy both topping and bottoming? It won't reflect every real life relationship, sure. But then, most real life relationships aren't motivated by Aliens Making Us Do It, if you see what I mean. I just don't see what it adds to the story to make one character an exclusive bottom, unless that's his kink.

And I have found that in my experience, most fic that sets up one person as the top doesn't explain this choice as being because of physical discomfort during bottoming. It instead presents the top/bottom pairing as a natural, obvious extension of power relationships in the fic. Which is where I start getting antsy about authorial intent.
china_shop: Close-up of Zhao Yunlan grinning (Default)
posted by [personal profile] china_shop at 09:15am on 08/02/2007
I guess what really squicks me is when characterization *is* the fantasy, instead of supporting a story about two real people *playing* with fantasy, or thrust into a fantasy situation By Means Of Plot.

*hearts*
ext_7824: Greta Salpeter (Default)
posted by [identity profile] kalpurna.livejournal.com at 07:30pm on 08/02/2007
♥ ♥ ♥
 
posted by [identity profile] executrix.livejournal.com at 02:15am on 09/02/2007
here via metafandom
One thing that makes me like a character is that ze reads as switchy to me, but that's *my* kink. But I agree that "Character L likes to bottom" (either in anal sex or in BDSM) doesn't tell you anything else about zir character.

However, most characters who are popular in fanfiction are at least moderately neurotic, and few of them come from free and easy backgrounds, so just because *I* don't think it's a huge issue doesn't mean that it isn't a big part of relationship negotiation for the characters. I used to write Blakes7 slash, and the Blake/Avon relationship is all about dominance struggles anyway, so I often wrote about topping/bottoming as an issue.

BTW, mentioning Brian Kinney raises another point: it's one thing if you're going to sleep with the same guy 738 times or 738 guys--if it's One Night Only you're more likely to carry out a pattern than if you have a long-standing relationship where there's an incentive to do different things to keep it interesting.
ext_7824: Greta Salpeter (Default)
posted by [identity profile] kalpurna.livejournal.com at 10:24pm on 10/02/2007
Yeah; I think that it's probably true that my affection for switchy characters and relationships is partly to do with my own kink.

That's certainly a valid point, as well, and I think my perspective on this may be influenced by the fact that my favorite pairings don't really have that particular issue, at least to my eyes. Maybe it's just that the dynamic doesn't particularly appeal to me, and so I don't seek out that kind of relationship to read about?

That's very true. I hadn't thought of that.

 
posted by [personal profile] ex_mrs260625 at 02:57am on 09/02/2007
Tangenty thought... one thing that amuses me about the ongoing pitcher/catcher discussion in slash is that so many of the participants in that discussion seem to assume that it's not fair to make some poor dear bottom all the time. While I (and probably about 90% of gay men who enjoy anal sex) tend to think it's not fair to make some poor dear top all the time. :0)

As far as I've discussed sex with my friends, I've known one really hard-core top and one really hard-core bottom, the types who would never want to switch at all. Most others who expressed a preference to me have a preference for bottoming. (One of the more enthusiastic tops I've known is also the most effeminate man I've ever met, for the record. Makes me look like a lumberjack by comparison, and I don't exactly consider myself butch.)

Of course, then there's the little-discussed matter of how many queer guys prefer not to have anal sex at all. Hard to get a bead on stats for that, because the sources of such statistics tend to have blatant biases that make me not trust them--anti-gay or pro-insert-other-queer-sex-act-here types, for example--but I can certainly believe it's more common than slash and queer erotica would lead us to believe!

One of the unfortunate things about the slash assumptions of either exclusivity or obsessive, scorekeeping equality is that I think integrating such things into a character's personality would be an interesting way of exploring certain things about them. (I've never known someone who was into taking equal turns with the fucking. I think they'd be viewed as quite odd by most queer guys. Guys who exclusively or near-exclusively stick to one or the other aren't viewed as strange, but they do get asked why. People tend to assume horrible anus-rending trauma for the tops and icky poo-related trauma for the bottoms.)

Of course, some guys just have really big penises that make their partners take one look at it and say, "So I'll be topping, then."
coneyislandbaby: (Default)
posted by [personal profile] coneyislandbaby at 03:38am on 09/02/2007
(via metafandom)

Of course, some guys just have really big penises that make their partners take one look at it and say, "So I'll be topping, then."

This made me giggle.

Of course in slash, it often seems to be that the guy with the big penis is the expected top as well.
 
posted by [identity profile] valarltd.livejournal.com at 03:30am on 09/02/2007
I know men who say penetration is what makes a man. Doing the penetrating. Being penetrated is the woman's part, which is why gay men and women are the same sort of lower being.

Needless to say, I don't have a lot in common with these guys.

I have one character I write (original) who is strictly a top because he follows that reasoning. He's getting taught better...
ext_7824: Greta Salpeter (Default)
posted by [identity profile] kalpurna.livejournal.com at 10:49pm on 10/02/2007
My suspicion of that reasoning on the part of the author is often what throws me out of a fic, actually. Because, ugh. And I'm totally OK with that kind of thinking from a character – as long as he learns his lesson! :D
 
posted by [identity profile] labingi.livejournal.com at 03:56am on 09/02/2007
Here via [livejournal.com profile] metafandom, and I haven't read all the comments, so apologies if I'm repeating. I agree with your fundamental point (that stereotyping people as all-top/all-bottom is narrow-minded and somewhat politically disturbing).

I think a partial answer you to your question lies in your own complaint. You ask, "Who would do X 100% of the time?" By the same token, I could ask, "Is Y true of 100% of the people?" In other words, while it's definitely silly to assume as a default that a couple only has one position, is it unrealistic to suppose that some people exist or might exist who are all-top or all-bottom--and aren't necessarily boring people/characters?

I'll give an example from my fic. I have a couple I see as having an all-top/all-bottom relationship, and I think that's in character. You see, the "top" sees himself as very straight and is really pushing his boundaries to be in bed with this other man at all. Bottom is just further than he can push himself. Meanwhile, the "bottom" in this fandom is a reincarnation of a woman, and so is pretty used to bottom, pretty comfortable with it, and sees no reason to change that dynamic, especially being aware that the "top" is really challenging himself just to be there at all. In that scenario, I think it makes sense that those roles would stay pretty rigid. Can I say they'd never under any circumstances experiment with something else? No. But I can easily imagine a scenario where that experimentation ends up never happening.

The basic point, which I think you and I are both making, is that "always/never" arguments are generally likely to be too simple.
ext_7824: Greta Salpeter (Default)
posted by [identity profile] kalpurna.livejournal.com at 10:56pm on 10/02/2007
while it's definitely silly to assume as a default that a couple only has one position, is it unrealistic to suppose that some people exist or might exist who are all-top or all-bottom--and aren't necessarily boring people/characters?

Oh, no, certainly not all people, and not even all characters. And your scenario makes plenty of sense. But my own preferences in reading slash are that mostly, unless I'm given a pretty compelling reason for exclusive topping/bottoming – or at least some reference to the issue existing – I start to feel uncomfortable. This post was meant to try and get at why that is.

Definitely something we can both agree on. :)
 
posted by [identity profile] poisonavery.livejournal.com at 04:00am on 09/02/2007
Even if all gay couples did comprise a tall, dark-haired, serious, older guy and a blond, mischievous, short younger guy

I would just like to say this really made me laugh. Which I'm sure wasn't your intention. But it did.

When I am not so lazy/tired/headachey, I will try and formulate a real thought here. :)
ext_7824: Greta Salpeter (Default)
posted by [identity profile] kalpurna.livejournal.com at 11:03pm on 10/02/2007
I'm glad you were amused! It's SUCH an extreme stereotype, and it seems to apppear everywhere in yaoi, you know?
 
posted by [identity profile] floriatosca.livejournal.com at 04:28am on 09/02/2007
Oddly enough, in a lot of the stuff I've read where the guys didn't switch, it was because the guy topping had some major PTSD-related emotional problems, and in those specific circumstances bottoming would have had too many unpleasant emotional associations to be really enjoyable, appealing as it might be in theory. In a way, this is a power thing, but it tends to be presented as "characters avoiding situations that have connotations of powerlessness *to them*" more than anything to do with D/s.
In most of these stories there's a point where it sinks in the guy who's been topping that his boyfriend doesn't find being penetrated at all traumatic or disempowering - in fact seems to enjoy it very much - and that he trusts said boyfriend enough that previously unthinkable ideas seem, just possibly, a bit more practical. This is where they start experimenting with switching.
ext_7824: Greta Salpeter (Default)
posted by [identity profile] kalpurna.livejournal.com at 11:08pm on 10/02/2007
That does make plenty of sense, and I would have no problem buying that scenario. It's just fic that doesn't think to address the issue, assuming that people are inherently A Top or A Bottom, that bothers me. And I love the transition to switching as emotional arc – that's a valid reason to add the "can't top" thing to your characterization, in my opinion.
 
posted by [identity profile] blackchaps.livejournal.com at 02:19pm on 09/02/2007
Yeah, I think you have a good point. My favorite character is Chris Keller/OZ fandom - he's the baddest psychopath in the yard - and yet - he likes it up the ass occasionally. Variety is good for the soul!
ext_7824: Greta Salpeter (Default)
posted by [identity profile] kalpurna.livejournal.com at 11:09pm on 10/02/2007
That's what I'm saying! *vbg*
ext_2451: (Default)
posted by [identity profile] aukestrel.livejournal.com at 12:05am on 12/02/2007
WOrd.
 
posted by [identity profile] dontkickmycane.livejournal.com at 05:44am on 01/03/2007
I'm commenting more because I just friended you than because I have anything new or insightful to add to your discussion. (Which, if you wanted to know, I linked to through the skinny (http://community.livejournal.com/origslash_news/11666.html?style=mine#cutid1) which [livejournal.com profile] logophilos now runs.) I happen to agree with your thoughts on this particular subject. Hence the 'nothing new or insightful to add'.

My Mamma brought me up to be polite and introduce myself, so hi there. My own friending policy is pretty loose. You don't have to feel obligated to friend back, I just wanted to let you know who I am and why I'm here.

April

SunMonTueWedThuFriSat
        1
 
2
 
3
 
4
 
5
 
6
 
7
 
8
 
9
 
10
 
11
 
12
 
13
 
14
 
15
 
16
 
17
 
18
 
19
 
20
 
21
 
22
 
23
 
24
 
25
 
26
 
27
 
28
 
29
 
30