I really, fundamentally don't get fic or pairings where one partner is defined as being always the top, or always the bottom. [Disclaimer: this does not mean that I have not read and adored particular fics of this type, only that I had to overcome my issues to like them.] I guess you could call this a squick, of a sort, except that it's not a knee-jerk EWW reaction, so much as a pervasive sense of discomfort.
I don't believe that sexual positions necessarily echo power in a relationship. I just don't. I think that someone can absolutely love getting fucked, and still be loud, forceful, and masculine. Hell, there are certainly women who wear the pants in their heterosexual relationship who don't want to peg their boyfriends. It's penetration, not a set of handcuffs. I also don't really understand the idea of a slash couple that never switches. Even if there are preferences, I still would think that sometimes, you feel like taking a walk on the other side of the fence. They can both feel good, right? And from time to time, I'd think everyone is in the mood to get fucked, regardless of what they usually prefer, or what their genitalia are.
It also bothers me on a political level, a bit; the whole butch/femme dynamic is so very heteronormative, mapping a traditional heterosexual power relationship onto a queer couple. I can absolutely get that you might skew towards one gender paradigm – I myself very much like wearing pretty dresses and heels and earrings – but I really don't understand how you couldn't sometimes feel like putting on dirty jeans and moving furniture or something. SOMETIMES, you know? And I guess the real crucial thing here, the key to my discontent, is that if you *are* entirely 100% all the time a submissive feminized bottom, then I think that's got to at least partially be a choice and a kink, something you're doing deliberately because it gets your rocks off to play that game.
And that particular game is not all that interesting to me. Because that isn't my kink. I'm also not particularly into D/s relationships in fic. This might be because for me to believe that, I really do have to be walking out onto a ledge of fantasy, a ledge where yeah, some real people choose to live their lives – but it's THEIR fantasy, not mine.
I guess what really squicks me is when characterization *is* the fantasy, instead of supporting a story about two real people *playing* with fantasy, or thrust into a fantasy situation By Means Of Plot. (Hi, aliens who made them do it!) Second Skin is the latter type; I have no particular interest in crossdressing, but I sure as hell want to read about JOHN being insanely turned on by crossdressing. Whereas a lot of badfic, and even a lot of well-done hardcore BDSM stuff, is really the AUTHOR'S fantasy. It has nothing to do with the characters really, they're just actors putting on a sexy show for the author and the readers both. Which I'm only sometimes on board for, and only when it happens to be my kink, and only, only in the shallowest of ways. They can be, um, useful? But when I'm done, I have no real interest in the story beyond that. It's porn in the men's-magazine sense.
As you might expect, I also have issues with Yaoi. (Some Yaoi fic is excellent, of course; my issues are with the Yaoi establishment, such as it is.) Seme/uke? PLEASE. That, to me, has no relationship to the real world at all, and real people are what I find sexy. Even if all gay couples did comprise a tall, dark-haired, serious, older guy and a blond, mischievous, short younger guy (who likes ramen), I still wouldn't want to read endless stories about them, because OMG boring. The fact that the notation of Yaoi pairings revolves around who gets fucked by whom revolts me. It's all the fucked-upness of patriarchy, without even including a female character! AWESOME.
Oh, oh, here's my point, maybe: if you force your characters into a classic D/s, top/bottom relationship, then you will appeal to other people who enjoy fantasizing about that kind of relationship. But if you write a fic in which *your characters*, your real-world, recognizable characters, enjoy fantasizing about, and playing with, that dynamic, then you might well appeal to people who don't share your kink. Or, hell, don't make it a big deal at all who fucks who. But don't expect me to believe that greedy-little-slutty-bottoms are not someone's kink – and if your fic is going to impress me, than it's probably the character's, rather than the author's.
Lolita is sort of the same thing, on some level, maybe. Little girls are not Nabokov's thing, and as a general rule, they're not the reader's thing. They're Humbert Humbert's thing. And yet Nabokov does such a good job of conveying that lust that I actually had to put the book down midway through, because I was so uncomfortable with the way it made me feel, the degree to which I was identifying with Humbert's desires. That's a compliment.
[A final disclaimer: if you're on my flist, then you're there because I love your writing and/or you yourself, and this essay is not talking about you. Even if you're not on my flist, it's a pretty sure bet this essay is not talking about you. Mostly, this essay is talking about me.]
I don't believe that sexual positions necessarily echo power in a relationship. I just don't. I think that someone can absolutely love getting fucked, and still be loud, forceful, and masculine. Hell, there are certainly women who wear the pants in their heterosexual relationship who don't want to peg their boyfriends. It's penetration, not a set of handcuffs. I also don't really understand the idea of a slash couple that never switches. Even if there are preferences, I still would think that sometimes, you feel like taking a walk on the other side of the fence. They can both feel good, right? And from time to time, I'd think everyone is in the mood to get fucked, regardless of what they usually prefer, or what their genitalia are.
It also bothers me on a political level, a bit; the whole butch/femme dynamic is so very heteronormative, mapping a traditional heterosexual power relationship onto a queer couple. I can absolutely get that you might skew towards one gender paradigm – I myself very much like wearing pretty dresses and heels and earrings – but I really don't understand how you couldn't sometimes feel like putting on dirty jeans and moving furniture or something. SOMETIMES, you know? And I guess the real crucial thing here, the key to my discontent, is that if you *are* entirely 100% all the time a submissive feminized bottom, then I think that's got to at least partially be a choice and a kink, something you're doing deliberately because it gets your rocks off to play that game.
And that particular game is not all that interesting to me. Because that isn't my kink. I'm also not particularly into D/s relationships in fic. This might be because for me to believe that, I really do have to be walking out onto a ledge of fantasy, a ledge where yeah, some real people choose to live their lives – but it's THEIR fantasy, not mine.
I guess what really squicks me is when characterization *is* the fantasy, instead of supporting a story about two real people *playing* with fantasy, or thrust into a fantasy situation By Means Of Plot. (Hi, aliens who made them do it!) Second Skin is the latter type; I have no particular interest in crossdressing, but I sure as hell want to read about JOHN being insanely turned on by crossdressing. Whereas a lot of badfic, and even a lot of well-done hardcore BDSM stuff, is really the AUTHOR'S fantasy. It has nothing to do with the characters really, they're just actors putting on a sexy show for the author and the readers both. Which I'm only sometimes on board for, and only when it happens to be my kink, and only, only in the shallowest of ways. They can be, um, useful? But when I'm done, I have no real interest in the story beyond that. It's porn in the men's-magazine sense.
As you might expect, I also have issues with Yaoi. (Some Yaoi fic is excellent, of course; my issues are with the Yaoi establishment, such as it is.) Seme/uke? PLEASE. That, to me, has no relationship to the real world at all, and real people are what I find sexy. Even if all gay couples did comprise a tall, dark-haired, serious, older guy and a blond, mischievous, short younger guy (who likes ramen), I still wouldn't want to read endless stories about them, because OMG boring. The fact that the notation of Yaoi pairings revolves around who gets fucked by whom revolts me. It's all the fucked-upness of patriarchy, without even including a female character! AWESOME.
Oh, oh, here's my point, maybe: if you force your characters into a classic D/s, top/bottom relationship, then you will appeal to other people who enjoy fantasizing about that kind of relationship. But if you write a fic in which *your characters*, your real-world, recognizable characters, enjoy fantasizing about, and playing with, that dynamic, then you might well appeal to people who don't share your kink. Or, hell, don't make it a big deal at all who fucks who. But don't expect me to believe that greedy-little-slutty-bottoms are not someone's kink – and if your fic is going to impress me, than it's probably the character's, rather than the author's.
Lolita is sort of the same thing, on some level, maybe. Little girls are not Nabokov's thing, and as a general rule, they're not the reader's thing. They're Humbert Humbert's thing. And yet Nabokov does such a good job of conveying that lust that I actually had to put the book down midway through, because I was so uncomfortable with the way it made me feel, the degree to which I was identifying with Humbert's desires. That's a compliment.
[A final disclaimer: if you're on my flist, then you're there because I love your writing and/or you yourself, and this essay is not talking about you. Even if you're not on my flist, it's a pretty sure bet this essay is not talking about you. Mostly, this essay is talking about me.]
(no subject)
I also can't stand slash that ALWAYS follows the blow job -> penetration route. That just gets boring.
(no subject)
(no subject)
On the butch-femme thing, I know a lot of people who joke about it but don't take it seriously, sort of like astrology. At the same, though, mostly they seem to have seized on their particular relationship to traditional feminity and won't vary from it, and tend to get uncomfortable if you vary from however they've pegged you. It seems like roles just get in under your guard whether you want them to or not.
(no subject)
I'm not sure I get what you're saying, exactly – is it that lots of people tend to seize onto roles for themselves, even if they're pretty liberated? Or is it that people tend to pick out roles for others? Because I think both of those are probably true to some extent, but I'm not sure which you meant.
(no subject)
I don't believe that sexual positions necessarily echo power in a relationship.
I'm a huge fan of topping from the bottom stories for that reason, the traditional sexual power rolls are switched, and that is a whole hell of a lot more interesting for me to read.
Very interesting and thought provoking post!
(no subject)
Oh, wow, I love topping from the bottom. There's some great John/Rodney in that vein, I believe, on both sides of the equation – which in their case is awesome characterization, I think. Both love to get fucked, both can't shut up or stop arguing to save their lives. ;)
Thank you!
(no subject)
...I think we were in two different parts (okay, I wasn't in fandom for SG1, I just read the fics) of the fandom.... All the fics I read seemed to turn Daniel into a slut that slept with everyone. And 95% of the BDSM fics I ran across had Daniel as the dom from sheer "Jake is a virgin due to being in the military."
.............Yeah. I'm going to go back to rereading a Farm in Iowa.
(no subject)
I don't want to hold up Queer as Folk (US) as the most realistic depiction of anything ever, 'cause it's not, but c'mon: even Brian Kinney, who's the world's toppiest top, takes it up the ass sometimes. EVEN BRIAN KINNEY TAKES IT UP THE ASS SOMETIMES. Think that should be our motto?
(no subject)
EVEN BRIAN KINNEY TAKES IT UP THE ASS SOMETIMES.
I WANT THAT T-SHIRT. \o/
(no subject)
Basically I'm saying it's weird to me too. *g*
(no subject)
Okay, now that that's handled, I'd like to chip in with this: almost 100% of people's ideas about what reinforces masculinity or feminitity is disempowering, oppressive, or downright evil. I say this because of the butches I know who make themselves butcher by behaving like straight macho assholes, because of the transfolks I know who 'go het' and avoid their queer friends (or say gaybashing things around straights) so that they can pass more convincingly, and because of the femmes I know who behave remarkably like straight women in the self-loathing olympics.
All of which has nothing to do with buttsex, I know. Right. Sorry. I tangent easily.
I do need to say: one queer construct that really doesn't show up in most slash (because it doesn't really show up in most television) is the Sissy. I LOVE FLAMING QUEENIE SISSIES SO MUCH!!! And for many Sissies of my acquaintance, there is a social perception of being in the 'permanent catcher' position, which is not only untrue, but unfair. For the Sissies I've asked, most of them guess that this perception is inevitable since they've already exposed themselves to intense ridicule by being an overtly effeminate man. Makes me completely insane.
On Lolita: what a brilliant book that is! I'm so glad he published it when he did, because he'd never get it out now. And yes, his ability to generate empathy and sympathy for Humbert never fails to utterly kick my ass.
*mwah*
M.
(no subject)
I know hardly anything about Sissies, but they sound like people who know how to have fun with who they are, and fuck expectations. And it's SO LAME that people then just slip them into a different, equally confining mental category. Why we have so much trouble distinguishing "our bits and the things we do with them" from "who we are," I will never ever understand.
Lolita: SO AMAZING, and someday, I swear I will finish it. I was really surprised to find I couldn't deal, because I've read a lot of weird stuff in my time. But yeah, the way he creates empathy for Humbert is so very powerful, and I just... couldn't separate myself out enough, and it freaked me out. I'm trying again soon!
*loves you forever*
(no subject)
I totally agree with this, but it is a ttally different point than I thought you were going to make before I clicked on the cut tag, which brings up another point I think is kind of interesting in regards to fanfic, which is the ... sort of fetishization of equality, which. Yes, I totally want the boys (or girls) to be worthy of each other, because as you say, the really severely divided relationship isn't at interesting to me, and doesn't feel as real. BUT, if sexual relationships =/ end-all of power dynamics in the relationships, then why do the characters have to be strictly evenly divided in their sexual activities, you know? If being a bottom DOESN'T mean those power issues that are disturbing, then why do both boys have to be switch position guys each time, right? But there's some sort of taboo, almost, against having one of them be a pitcher and one a catcher, because ... I guess it's too hard to separate those assumptions? Hm.
(no subject)
I definitely don't demand that they switch positions every time, it's just that... well, for instance, in
And I think that in fic, which is not real life, an absolutely strict pitcher/catcher division of characters often goes hand in hand with a certain interpretation of power issues and roles. Because most of the time when authors write a relationship that way, it's not just a sex thing. Does that make any sense? I feel like I'm blithering quite a lot. :)
I bet a lot of authors are paranoid about running into this very issue, though, which might make them compulsively switch position each sex scene! I definitely agree that's a little silly.
(no subject)
And you're right to point out that the top/bottom dynamic functions in most slashfic as a way of transcribing het power dynamics and has little to do with sexual pleasure or gratification. I love dS fic to bits (except the bad!fic, of which I've read very little) because the whole top/bottom question is so often resolved in terms of what the characters need or want in a particular moment; everyone (F, K and V) is usually shown to be fairly flexible and I assume that's the way it must work in most m/m or f/f relationships, unless one party is (as you point out) strictly interested in D/s or pegging as their own personal kink of choice. Because always bottoming (and I use the term to denote the sexual position and not all the associated political/gender implications) would be very, very dull.
And I just realized I don't have anything constructive to offer at all. This whole response is just me nodding my head and going, "Exactly!"
(no subject)
That is exactly what I meant. I don't care what real people do in bed at all, and I'm not demanding that characters have no preferences. But in slash, the "I am a Bottom" lapel pin seems to carry with it all this other baggage of power dynamics and protectiveness and ugh, it's just completely not my thing.
Thanks so much! I really appreciate knowing that other people feel the same way.
(no subject)
I also like yaoi. But what you said about the whole seme/uke thing? Yep. Annoying. As more shounen ai/yaoi material is translated, I've discovered that the stereotypes just get wearisome. I still enjoy Western-in-origin yaoi fanfic, because I like certain characters and series and the way some authors write them. (And somehow I've managed to avoid most of the A/B versus B/A wanking, which makes me very happy.) But I don't like a lot of the original, professional shounen ai/yaoi from Japan, because I don't like the power and head games masquerading under the guise of true love. Though I still love that it exists as a commercially viable genre.
(no subject)
Also, yes yes yes about the Japanese pro/ Western fanfic distinction. It's probably to do with my cultural context and other such things, but as a rule? I get sketched out by this:
I don't like the power and head games masquerading under the guise of true love.
Which. Yes.
via pearl-o
They can both feel good, but not not necessarily for the same people.
To me, that's like saying it's impossible for a woman to never want to receive oral sex. While I occasionally do give it another try, I find it physically uncomfortable because of how my body's wired. I know a straight guy who likes anal stimulation, but it's always a bit painful for him, and I can imagine that another guy wouldn't be interested in putting up with that pain. Gay men don't have different anal wiring; some men find prostate stimulation uncomfortable. Period. Why would they ever want to bottom?
Why should gay men always be more flexible in their sexual preferences than women or straight men?
I'm not a big fan of reading about the butch/femme dynamic with any gender combo, but I see that as a separate issue from who's penetrating whom in bed.
Re: via pearl-o
But I wasn't really talking about real life. I was talking about slash fiction. And in slash, it strikes me as an odd choice to write a partner as being physically uncomfortable with bottoming (or topping), for the same reason that I'd find it weird to read a slash fic where one partner really dislikes giving blowjobs. Of course there are plenty of people who hate giving blowjobs in the real world. But why apply that to fic? It doesn't advance the plot, it doesn't advance the romance, and it doesn't help character development or make sex scenes hotter. It's just kind of unfortunate.
Given that we can give our characters any kind of wiring we want, why shouldn't we give both partners the ability to enjoy both topping and bottoming? It won't reflect every real life relationship, sure. But then, most real life relationships aren't motivated by Aliens Making Us Do It, if you see what I mean. I just don't see what it adds to the story to make one character an exclusive bottom, unless that's his kink.
And I have found that in my experience, most fic that sets up one person as the top doesn't explain this choice as being because of physical discomfort during bottoming. It instead presents the top/bottom pairing as a natural, obvious extension of power relationships in the fic. Which is where I start getting antsy about authorial intent.
(no subject)
*hearts*
(no subject)
(no subject)
One thing that makes me like a character is that ze reads as switchy to me, but that's *my* kink. But I agree that "Character L likes to bottom" (either in anal sex or in BDSM) doesn't tell you anything else about zir character.
However, most characters who are popular in fanfiction are at least moderately neurotic, and few of them come from free and easy backgrounds, so just because *I* don't think it's a huge issue doesn't mean that it isn't a big part of relationship negotiation for the characters. I used to write Blakes7 slash, and the Blake/Avon relationship is all about dominance struggles anyway, so I often wrote about topping/bottoming as an issue.
BTW, mentioning Brian Kinney raises another point: it's one thing if you're going to sleep with the same guy 738 times or 738 guys--if it's One Night Only you're more likely to carry out a pattern than if you have a long-standing relationship where there's an incentive to do different things to keep it interesting.
(no subject)
That's certainly a valid point, as well, and I think my perspective on this may be influenced by the fact that my favorite pairings don't really have that particular issue, at least to my eyes. Maybe it's just that the dynamic doesn't particularly appeal to me, and so I don't seek out that kind of relationship to read about?
That's very true. I hadn't thought of that.
(no subject)
As far as I've discussed sex with my friends, I've known one really hard-core top and one really hard-core bottom, the types who would never want to switch at all. Most others who expressed a preference to me have a preference for bottoming. (One of the more enthusiastic tops I've known is also the most effeminate man I've ever met, for the record. Makes me look like a lumberjack by comparison, and I don't exactly consider myself butch.)
Of course, then there's the little-discussed matter of how many queer guys prefer not to have anal sex at all. Hard to get a bead on stats for that, because the sources of such statistics tend to have blatant biases that make me not trust them--anti-gay or pro-insert-other-queer-sex-act-here types, for example--but I can certainly believe it's more common than slash and queer erotica would lead us to believe!
One of the unfortunate things about the slash assumptions of either exclusivity or obsessive, scorekeeping equality is that I think integrating such things into a character's personality would be an interesting way of exploring certain things about them. (I've never known someone who was into taking equal turns with the fucking. I think they'd be viewed as quite odd by most queer guys. Guys who exclusively or near-exclusively stick to one or the other aren't viewed as strange, but they do get asked why. People tend to assume horrible anus-rending trauma for the tops and icky poo-related trauma for the bottoms.)
Of course, some guys just have really big penises that make their partners take one look at it and say, "So I'll be topping, then."
(no subject)
Of course, some guys just have really big penises that make their partners take one look at it and say, "So I'll be topping, then."
This made me giggle.
Of course in slash, it often seems to be that the guy with the big penis is the expected top as well.
(no subject)
Needless to say, I don't have a lot in common with these guys.
I have one character I write (original) who is strictly a top because he follows that reasoning. He's getting taught better...
(no subject)
(no subject)
I think a partial answer you to your question lies in your own complaint. You ask, "Who would do X 100% of the time?" By the same token, I could ask, "Is Y true of 100% of the people?" In other words, while it's definitely silly to assume as a default that a couple only has one position, is it unrealistic to suppose that some people exist or might exist who are all-top or all-bottom--and aren't necessarily boring people/characters?
I'll give an example from my fic. I have a couple I see as having an all-top/all-bottom relationship, and I think that's in character. You see, the "top" sees himself as very straight and is really pushing his boundaries to be in bed with this other man at all. Bottom is just further than he can push himself. Meanwhile, the "bottom" in this fandom is a reincarnation of a woman, and so is pretty used to bottom, pretty comfortable with it, and sees no reason to change that dynamic, especially being aware that the "top" is really challenging himself just to be there at all. In that scenario, I think it makes sense that those roles would stay pretty rigid. Can I say they'd never under any circumstances experiment with something else? No. But I can easily imagine a scenario where that experimentation ends up never happening.
The basic point, which I think you and I are both making, is that "always/never" arguments are generally likely to be too simple.
(no subject)
Oh, no, certainly not all people, and not even all characters. And your scenario makes plenty of sense. But my own preferences in reading slash are that mostly, unless I'm given a pretty compelling reason for exclusive topping/bottoming – or at least some reference to the issue existing – I start to feel uncomfortable. This post was meant to try and get at why that is.
Definitely something we can both agree on. :)
(no subject)
I would just like to say this really made me laugh. Which I'm sure wasn't your intention. But it did.
When I am not so lazy/tired/headachey, I will try and formulate a real thought here. :)
(no subject)
(no subject)
In most of these stories there's a point where it sinks in the guy who's been topping that his boyfriend doesn't find being penetrated at all traumatic or disempowering - in fact seems to enjoy it very much - and that he trusts said boyfriend enough that previously unthinkable ideas seem, just possibly, a bit more practical. This is where they start experimenting with switching.
(no subject)
(no subject)
(no subject)
(no subject)
(no subject)
My Mamma brought me up to be polite and introduce myself, so hi there. My own friending policy is pretty loose. You don't have to feel obligated to friend back, I just wanted to let you know who I am and why I'm here.