conversations with wolf shirts [kalpurna]

I will never not be in love with the description of Gerard Way in high school as "the kind of guy who wore wolf t-shirts." I actually came up with this independently in a flaily chat with

shoemaster, and was kind of overwhelmed with how TRUE it must have been, oh my GOD. Young chubby Gerard with his wolf shirts, drawing on his notebooks! And then a couple of days later, she linked me to this fic, in which the author comes up with the exact same reference. Another win for the fannish hive-mind! Actually, that whole fic is fantastic, because it's all about how My Chem are complete dorky losers who love each other. We all know how much I approve of those.

me: doesn't a lot of bandslash strike you as kind of... flat?
me: like, not uplifting, not moving, just... flat
Allison: a lot of it is just there
Allison: and the straight up porn doesn't seem to make an emotional attachment
me: it's just, stuff happens, and they fuck up, and then they get together, and I am not MOVED
Allison: yeah, that might be it
me: I want angst and misunderstandings and DRAMA and an AMAZING UPLIFTING ENDING OF JOY, and what I get is, you know, vignettes
Allison: I know
Allison: *siiiiiiigh*
Allison: I swear, I saw someone reply to like, a 6000 word fic with 'i don't normally read stuff this long', and I was like 'BITCH PLEASE'
me: we need some

cesperanza up in here
Allison: KellieM would be okay
me: even stuff I really like otherwise in bandslash doesn't move me like most f/k did? i don't know why
Allison: like what?
me: i think I expect too much hyperemotional drama or something, and it's too real
Allison: it's kind of too easy
me: like, let me see
me: YES, THAT
me: and not natural enough? or, i don't know. F/K was like this miracle, this crazy thing that could never work, but it DID and it was perfect and it worked. but most bandslashers are like, eh, they like each other, they have sex, it's fine
me: like, okay, Sick does it for me, as does Chance
Allison: there's no conflict to overcome to get to the happy, or not ENOUGH
me: yeah. and the happy isn't HAPPY enough, maybe? they're not surprised enough. surprise is what I want, I think
me: miracles
Allison: the awe of 'oh, I get to have this'
Allison: Ray and Fraser fucking TREASURE their good luck, once they've stopped being fuckups
me: right. right. exactly. like, [story] works for me SO MUCH, up until the ending, where I feel like it doesn't quite get there
me: it's too easy, too expected?
me: or [other story]. it ALMOST gets there, but... it doesn't leave me with that rush of emotion, that consuming joy and hope. it's just, okay, this is where we are now, i guess
Allison: you're such a fucking romantic <3

Allison (in reference to a fic): two different conversations at once ftw
me: ahahah, i know, unreliable narrator yays
me: hee, my two opposing kinks: unreliable narrator and hyperemotional romance
Allison: is there a way those can work together? there must be
me: there is, see:

astolat, entire oeuvre of
me: if it's done right, the little cues to what the other person is thinking KILL you
Allison: exactly!
Allison: oh
Allison: Unguarded Protectorate
me: right, right! speranza's done it, i just can't think of where atm. she tends to switch pov, which also works
Allison: Hanged Man?
me: maaaybe, I can't remember it, let me see. hmm, not quite, the pov isn't strict enough
me: i love me some strict pov
Allison: I know you do, and I'm trying to THINK of those ones, but i can't
me: sigh
me: my point is, bandslash needs to get on that train
Allison: yes
me: they've got strict pov, but come on, we need EMOTION
me: i like boys who don't talk about their feelings, but they HAVE a TON of feelings
me: like, bursting with it
Allison: XD
Allison: okay, yeah, [this fic I'm reading] is not resolving in the most satisfying way
me: that's the THING! it KILLS me, because it'll be great up to that point, and then, god, it's sex without the O
Allison: it was SO PROMISING
me: I KNOW
Allison: seriously, even when [thing happens] it is building to be awesome!
me: i know i know
Allison: and then they talk too much, and it's suddenly all okay
me: and then, blah, it falls flat
me: lame
Allison: even though there's still [issue]!
me: oh, OH, I know what the real problem is
me: the emotional conflict gets resolved before the sex
Allison: YES
me: that's IT, that's what I think the big problem is
Allison: that's why I HATE [name redacted, I promise it's not you]'s stuff. they say I LOVE YOU before they take off their pants
Allison: I mean, wtf
me: that SUCKS. jesus, people, keep your conflict going up to the end!
Allison: like in Sick!
me: YES
Allison: they're fucking but they think it's just a casual thing!
me: yes yes yes
me: wait, what? in sick, they're not fucking, exactly, right?
Allison: I might be blurring
me: but YES, the sexy parts in the fic happen pre-revelation of emotional content
Allison: but it's either just a stage thing, or something
me: right, yes. there is so much gerard angst about how Frank is just taking pity on him and i loooove it
Allison: there isn't as much on the Frank side
me: yeah, but that's pov. i heart pov
me: unreliable naaaaarator

me: why do i love virgin fic SO MUCH
me: i don't know!
Allison: first fandom in ages with TEENAGERS
me: YAY
me: I LOVE UNDERAGE SEX
me: i mean, what

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Yeah, I hear you on the lack of long fic. It's strange: in every fandom before this, I never really *wanted* long fic, I didn't have the attention span, and as a writer I never really wrote stuff that was longer than about 8,000 words. I always got really defensive when people would bring up that old stupid complaint about how LJ doesn't encourage long fic, these whipper-snappers today only post vignettes, everything sucks tears tears vomit etc. And I still stand by my belief that there's nothing inherently better about long fic than short fic, and I've definitely read wonderful short fic in this fandom that packs the same kind of wonderful emotional punch that you might find in longer fic. Good writing is good writing, regardless of the length, you know?

That said, OMFG, in this fandom I want EPICS. I want novels about Pete and Patrick dancing around each other and fucking up and finally getting together. I want pages upon pages upon pages of William and Travis having sex on tour and slowly falling for each other and trying to pretend that they're just having a casual thing and not wanting to admit that it's more than that. I want to read a long fic about Patrick and Travis where each chapter is the name of one of a song from As Cruel As School Children, all about how Travis slowly seduced Patrick while he was producing that album. I am greedier for long fic in this fandom than I ever have been before, and I'm *definitely* writing longer fic than I ever have before. It's so strange!

I think it's a little unfair to expect a still-relatively-new fandom to have the likes of

astolat and

cesperanza. *g* But 'A Common Understanding' is one of my favorite epics in any fandom, and even though 'And The Moon In Their Net' isn't *that* long it feels like such a wonderful, meaty, epic story with such a fantastic plot and has that emotional conflict you're talking about. (I admit, I can totally be a little touchy on this subject in this fandom, because part of me always goes 'but but I *did* write an epic!' whenever people make blanket statements about how there are *no* good long fics in this fandom. Which isn't to say your post did that, but this isn't the first post I've seen on the subject. Other people have been saying similar things in ways that have annoyed me a lot more. *koff*)

[link] [reply]

Your epic was the FIRST fic I read (over

kalpurna's shoulder on the plane back from Muskrat Jamboree. Next day I was all 'so where do I find more of this 'bandslash'?) So I got all hopeful! But no.

misspamela's comment of "Did you see

ficbyzee posted something LONG!" should have tipped me off, I guess.

There are LOTS of good fics that pack a wollop in less than a thousand words, but I'm a sucker for anything that lets me wallow in the boys for pages and pages on end. I think the rule of 'long fic is not inherently better than short fic' is proved by all the fics with headers like Part 51/?

And yeah, we're totally being wishful thinkers re:

cesperanza, but I haven't really been in a fandom as new as this since Harry Potter when I was thirteen ~~and had no standards~~. I was nine years late into due South and there were stacks and stacks of epics to waste my time and kill my GPA with, so, yeah.

[link] [parent] [reply]

over kalpurna's shoulder on the plane back from Muskrat Jamboree

hee, omg, and the WORST part is that I (like an idiot) had only loaded the first section before leaving the damn hotel. So I got to the end of the first part and there wasn't any more. IT WAS UPSETTING.

Yeah, way to FAIL there, honey. Even if your battery WAS dying we could've saved the page to my USB drive and opened it on mine.

Also, how much do I love how annoying we must have been on that plane, singing Relient K totally off key (on my part)? People in front of us fucking deserved it.

(oh man, I think I need like 8 more bandslash icons.)

that dude tried to crush me with his seat! NOT COOL

I am definitely using this thread as an excuse to use the new Gerard icons I just uploaded. \o/

Ahahaha, I'm sorry! That fic of mine is, honestly, pretty different from anything other folks in the fandom had been writing at that point (and REALLY different from anything I myself had been writing), so it's not a very good representative sample of the fic in this fandom. Whoops.

I completely empathize, man. The last time I was so monofannish and obsesed with one fandom that I can really remember was that first year or so in DC comics fandom (and like five seconds in SGA, but whatever). And while that fandom then was probably even smaller than bandslash is right now,

thete1 had been churning out epic series for a whole year before I even got there. And while there was a lot of fic in this fandom when I got into it, most of it was Panic!, which I've never been as interested in. And there was just SO MUCH stuff in canon that people hadn't had a chance to explore yet! I was absolutely floored when I wrote Turn My Head Into Sound and it turned out that I was the first one to write fic with Pete talking dirty to Patrick onstage. I mean, geez, that seems so OBVIOUS to me, look at all the pictures! But no one had done it, apparently.

Anyway, wow, I am rambling, but--yes. There should be more long fic! There should be more fic, period. There's also a painful lack of fic in this fandom about the guys that aren't as big--it KILLS ME that there isn't more William/Travis than there is, what with the way those two are always practically fucking each other onstage. I think we just need to generate more buzz about the fandom and get more writers into it and the fic will come, I hope. :D

I think we just need to generate more buzz about the fandom and get more writers into it and the fic will come, I hope.

~~oh man this is so my sekrit plot, why do you think I am trying so hard to pimp people into this fandom: SO THEY CAN WRITE FOR ME~~

*koff* Uhm. Sinister master plan what? Where?

I need so many more Gerard icons, omg. I wish LJ would let us have more than 100 icons! I WILL PAY FOR IT, LJ, PLEASE TAKE MY MONEY.

(no subject) —

ficbyzee.livejournal.com

kalpurna.livejournal.com

shoemaster.livejournal.com

and there was just SO MUCH stuff in canon that people hadn't had a chance to explore yet!

This is how I feel about hooker Pete and this is why I am writing him. If I hadn't just hiked for three hours, I'd have more to add. Yeah.

misspamela.livejournal.com

hermionemalfoy.livejournal.com

queenofhell.livejournal.com

See, that is the THING! I want novels and novels and novels about these boys. And I want them now, damn it, because I am selfish! I don't know, normally I am totally into short fic as well, but I am just so glutted on that lately (having read pretty much everything good written in the fandom, as far as I can tell) that I am just LONGING for more epics. I have been spoiled by due South, honestly, where I came into the fandom years and years after it started and there were volumes of amazing fic out there in all shapes and sizes. It is so irrational to expect to get that in every fandom, and I get that – but I'm still the little kid banging her spoon on the table for MORE.

(and oh man, I have to say that you and

femmequixotic and

joyfulseeker are my HEROES for posting epics just around the time I came into the fandom. I would have been so much more whiny about this a month ago, you have no idea. *g*)

It really is the emotional-punch thing I'm looking for, though, more than anything – it always is, with me, stupid romantic that I am. And this isn't a criticism of specific authors at all, because plenty of them know how to bring it, it's more – I don't know, the overall fanon attitude? The general sense of characterization? God, that's so unfairly vague, but I can't think of a better way to put it. My general perception of attitudes toward pairings in bandslash is very different than my perception of attitudes toward F/K in due South, and my sense is that in bandslash, a much higher proportion of stories are friendship-and-sex than huge dramatic ridiculous romance. And while I love me a good friendship-and-sex story, I am CRAVING that miraculous, so lucky to have found this, joyful realization that is all over a large percentage of Fraser/Kowalski fic. Because I am a complete girl.

My general perception of attitudes toward pairings in bandslash is very different than my perception of attitudes toward F/K in due South, and my sense is that in bandslash, a much higher proportion of stories are friendship-and-sex than huge dramatic ridiculous romance.

I know what you mean. I think a lot of that comes from the way it's just REALLY easy to posit a 'friendly fucking' starting place with a lot of pairings, if that makes sense. Like, for example Travis/Beckett (ack, I keep using them as an example, how totally obvious that I've been craving this pairing lately?), it's not just *easy* for me to write them as two guys who are best buds and occasionally fuck, it's ACTUALLY REALLY HARD for me to imagine that that is not their canonical relationship. It's difficult to conceptualize that's all about longing and romance and secret feelings and such when these guys are already aalll over each other.

Plus, I think a lot of people just see the characters in a way where they *wouldn't* necessarily have these really romantic relationships with other dudes, and I can see where that comes from. For instance, there's this one interview with Gerard and Bert McCracken (which, for context, Gerard/Bert happening is pretty much a canon thing) where they're reading fan questions, and one of them is 'are you guys dating?' And they both crack up, and Gerard says something like 'Guys like us don't... date.' Clearly implying that they fuck all the time, though. *cough*

And I think that the reason that Pete/Patrick *has* inspired a few more 'romantic' fics than I've seen for other pairings is that we have all these quotes about their deep meaningful relationship, how Patrick is an iPod of Pete's favorite songs, how Patrick was the only one who knew about Pete's OD'ing for months, etc etc. We have more of a view of the real *relationship* behind the gay touching--and there's tension there, too. It's easier to look at Pete and Patrick in canon and see reasons why they might not be hooking up yet, and go from there, if that makes sense.

Uh, wow, apparently I have lots to say on this topic. Sorry for rambling all over your post. *g*

But, okay, so in that case what I want, what I would really love, is a Travis/Beckett fic where they are fucking and they are buddies, and whatever, they are totally not involved, it is just for fun! They are not interested in relationships! And then Bill is all over some other dude at a party, and Travis's stomach kind of hurts, but probably that's just because he ate some bad shrimp. He's not JEALOUS, of course, because they are not like that! They are just friends! No emotional attachment here at all! And then, I don't know, they have a big dramatic confrontation where they don't really say any of the things they're thinking, and they both think the other one's being an asshole, and it's a huge mess. But finally those two crazy kids work it out, and go get married in Canada or something, because they are embarassingly in love.

God, and see, that is why I love Bert/Gerard as a past pairing in Frank/Gerard fic so much. Because Gerard has convinced himself that he is not the kind of guy who dates (and man, I love that interview so so much, even though it makes me sad for Gerard and his POOR DECISIONS), but really he just, he's been doing the casual thing for so long, fucking around with people who don't care about him. And when they break up with him, when Bert doesn't stop drinking and he does, he comes back to the bus and lets Frank stroke his hair, but he's not upset, he's not, because he's not the kind of guy who dates. And Frank wants to kill Bert with his bare hands. (Because he hurt his FRIEND, obviously! What other reason could there be?) Cue angst, and misunderstandings, and hopeless pining, and Canadian weddings.

Yeah, I don't know. I am a giiiirl. I guess what I'm saying is: I can see why that would happen, because it does make sense from canon, but – much as I love no-strings-attached PWPs, I really really love romance. And everyone should be catering to my desires ALL THE TIME. That's all I ask!

(oh man, ramble away. I could talk about these boys all day, it is kind of absurd.)

calathea.livejournal.com

that rush of emotion, that consuming joy and hope.

i think you've nailed f/k dead on with that description.. i tend to find this pairing "miraculous" too, in contrast with other tv/media fandoms i've been reading in ;D

SIGH. I know. Benton Fraser and Ray Kowalski: you will always be my favorite boys.

Man, I agree with you guys so much about what you like in fic, but especially:

i like boys who don't talk about their feelings, but they HAVE a TON of feelings

afkdjsalkjdf oh, I love that very so much. Lack of communication skills ftw.

YAY
I LOVE UNDERAGE SEX
i mean, what

This is why we're all going to The Bad Place *g*

\o/ \o/ \o/

I totally kind of mean it, too. I am so very thrilled with the fact that Pete is canonically a pedo, because it means I can write him hooking up with 16-year-old Patrick. ahahhahaha I'm going to hell

LOL! Aren't we all.

...fair enough.

me: yeah. and the happy isn't HAPPY enough, maybe? they're not surprised enough. surprise is what I want, I think
me: miracles
Allison: the awe of 'oh, I get to have this'
Allison: Ray and Fraser fucking TREASURE their good luck, once they've stopped being fuckups

Heart!!!

me: if it's done right, the little cues to what the other person is thinking KILL you

Yessssss. That is what I want all fic to be all the time. I would read that 400 times in a row and never get tired.

♥ ♥ ♥ They are my favorite boys forever, it is true.

Seriously. I will NEVER get tired of that.

I don't know from bandslash but here is my totally non-substantive contribution to the conversation:

my two opposing kinks: unreliable narrator and hyperemotional romance

Me too!! Hyperemotional romance especially is TEH BEST.

I LOVE UNDERAGE SEX

Ha ha ha, I am you.

Me too!! Hyperemotional romance especially is TEH BEST.

Man, it SO IS. I hate talking about feelings (in fic *or* in real life, ahaha, it's funny because it's true) BUT that doesn't mean I don't want them to HAVE feelings! LOTS OF FEELINGS. ANGSTY WONDERFUL FEELINGS OF DRAMA.

Ha ha ha, I am you.

<3

ahhhahahah i knew i wasn't the only one thinking wolf shirts! i was like "dude, there have GOT TO BE OTHER PEOPLE suspecting the exact same thing" but then i had never read anything that had a reference to wolf shirts, or really, shirts of any fantasy element, or even national park shirts like yellowstone or fucking, grand canyon, i don't know. anyway. i'm glad we discovered the hive-mind.

and that's some good/interesting discussion about fic. no doubt the stuff i write falls into 99% of those categories, but whatevs, whatevs. :D except for what i wrote for MCR - i just killed people off to avoid resolution. heh.

oh, i got here through the newsletter comm, btw.

dotcoms_refresh? i have a terrible memory.

Oh man, now I feel guilty for not feedbacking, so let me take this opportunity to say: I loved that fic! It made me grin and draw hearts around those loser boys in my head. And man, that is my favorite characterization of them ever, because seriously: lame dorky boys from Jersey who are also kind of adorable and, you know, rock stars. \o/

And wolf shirts: a truer statement has never been made. GRAND CANYON SHIRTS. Or, omg, this (http://liquidblue.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/tshirts.detail/cat/fantasy/subcat/dark_fantasy/CODE/31704/cave_dragon.html). Gerard SO owned that. ♥