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posted by [personal profile] kalpurna at 09:33pm on 12/10/2007 under , , ,
Note: terminology is kind of confusing. For the purposes of this post, "fandom" is being used to mean "media slash fandom." Or, well, media slash and RPS. And het written by people who also write slash or interact with slashers. Basically, if your fandom operates in some way remotely analogous to the way SGA or Bandslash or Due South fandom operates, then I'm talking to you.

Second note: This is my experience. This is how I feel. If you feel differently, I would love to hear about it, but please don't tell me angrily that I don't speak for you. I know. That's why I posted it in MY journal.

Third note: Uh, this is pretty long. Just so you know.






FANDOM AS QUEER FEMALE SPACE, WITH A BANDOM DIGRESSION, AND INCIDENTAL VICTORIANS.


In my experience, for me, fandom is a fundamentally and profoundly female space. It is overwhelmingly female, to the extent that most fangirls I know have only one or two men on their flist, if any. I was stunned to read a post once that talked about "just not noticing that there were lots of women," because my experience is so overwhelmingly feminine. So I started thinking about what it means to me that fandom is female.

I don't mean to say that it's a very femme place, or that it's only meant for people who strongly identify as female. Certainly it has more space for genderqueer individuals than most female spaces; that's because it has more space for queer individuals. In fact, it has very little room for the *non*queer. It has always confused me that the standard goggle-eyed magazine description of slashers is "straight women writing about gay men," for two reasons - first of all, isn't it a lot weirder to write about gay men if you're a lesbian? And secondly, it's just not true. There are some straight women on my friendslist, some lesbians, one gay man, and quite a lot of bisexuals or otherwise queer individuals. It can be pretty damn hard to be a straight woman in fandom, according to my friends who are.

I even think it's fair to make the argument that no matter how straight you may be – no matter how little interest you have in having sex with or dating a woman – if you are participating in slash fandom, you are, on some level, queer. You are participating in an erotic activity with other women. You are interested in, almost obsessed with, queerness and queer themes. Nobody who reads or writes slash isn't a little bit queer.

The eroticism of relationships between fangirls is incredibly interesting to me. It's not just that cons are full of girls making out, although in my experience (ahaha, seriously) they are. It's not just that there are three or four couples on my flist alone. It's that everything we do, the entire experience of writing porn for a female audience, constitutes some kind of homosexual contact. It's in the definition. You're writing something that will hopefully get someone else off - and that someone is a woman. This isn't even approaching the level of homoeroticism involved in something like co-writing, in which women collaborate on producing a sexual artifact, competing to turn each other on and then displaying the result to a female audience.

Even if you're writing PG stuff across the board, even if you're not reading any porn, you're still interacting romantically with women. You're forming homosocial bonds through descriptions of homosexual romance. The great drama of fandom, for me, at least, has never been between me and the male writers/actors/musicans; it's between me and my flist. I flew to England partly to see DecayDanceFest, but I would have been much, much more upset by [livejournal.com profile] calathea and [livejournal.com profile] airinshaw not making it down to London than by Brendon Urie canceling with a throat infection. The men in my fandom life pale before the women.

I found myself reacting with a great deal of discomfort to [livejournal.com profile] ficbyzee's post about us idealizing our fanobjects in bandslash, to the point of excluding ourselves from that plane of being. Partly, my discomfort had to do with my feeling that she hit very close to the mark with regard not only to how we feel about ourselves, but to how young non-slash fans feel about these bands, and even how the bandmembers feel about their female fans. It makes me incredibly angry to think about, as she pointed out, lyrics about "a whole subculture of boys driving around in vans." I have the uncomfortable feeling that it is impossible for some of the FBR bandmembers to imagine girls lying around in a shitty van with their heads in each others' laps being creative.

Uh, but you know what? That's kind of what we're doing. I mean, minus the van and plus a livejournal. The other thing that bothered me in [livejournal.com profile] ficbyzee's post was the unstated implication that what we're doing somehow isn't as good as what they're doing. I'm not a musician. I have, to be completely honest, less interest in music than most people I know. But I am a fangirl. It's a huge part of my identity. And what that means is that I form tight creative and social bonds with other women. We're a whole subculture of girls fucking around on the internet, and I wouldn't change it for anything.

I really, really hope that the girls who are fans of these bands, and the bandmembers themselves, are not as convinced as I think they might be that women are incapable of loving each other the way the bandom boys love each other. I get the feeling they think that boys love each other, and girls love boys. The idea of intrafemale bonds is basically completely absent from their lyrics and conversation. It's just not part of the narrative, and while that's partially cultural, it's also fucking bullshit that needs to end.

Few things drive me as crazy as the assertion that "girls are vicious to each other." Girls are backstabbing, right? Especially in middle school, it's the fundamental nature of girls to form cliques, to fight and compete over boys, to be jealous and catty. That's the way it is.

Bullshit.

This is a new idea, this concept of women as fundamentally hostile to each other. In Victorian England, women's fundamental nature was to love each other, to admire each other physically and intellectually, to form bonds which no man could touch. An extremely common conceit in the Victorian novel was for two female rivals to have a touching encounter and fall into each others' arms weeping, upon which one of the rivals *gives* the man to the other woman. Even when this doesn't happen, it's almost always true that in the Victorian marriage plot, the heroine must form close attachments with other women before the marriage can occur.

And you know what? That fits a lot closer to my experience than the more recent, competitive model. I'm not saying that the new cliche doesn't have some truth to it, or that the old one was without flaw, but most of the important relationships in my life have been with other women. I spend a ridiculous amount of time interacting with other women, comforting friends, laughing, eroticizing both men and women, having intellectual conversations, complaining, squeeing. Women are my closest friends.

Oh, huh, look at that! We're right back at fandom.

When I say fandom is a female (safe) space, what I'm saying is that fandom is a place where I can come to talk about my depression, my vagina, my celebrity crushes, slash, sci fi, my thoughts on religion, my period, my vibrator, my political views, my erotic fixations, etc, etc. And then we all share our creative output with each other and talk about it. And NO ONE shuts it down. That's unbelievable, you guys. That's ridiculous. There are spaces on the internet where women are in the minority, and that is not the way things are there. Ask any female gamer. This is a place we've hacked out for ourselves where it is actually possible to carry on this kind of conversation without being shut down or yelled at for being gross or off topic or oversharing (as long as we put it behind a cut-tag *g*). That's unbelievable, and I fucking love it.

I recognize that what I've said here might not ring true with everyone, especially those readers who are not clear-cut in their gender identification, or whose fandoms (comics, for example) contain a higher percentage of men. I also really, really don't intend to make men or genderqueer persons uncomfortable, and you're just as welcome to be here as any woman. Provided you don't shut down that ongoing conversation – a conversation which was built by women. I sincerely believe that it would have been impossible for (slash media) fandom to develop as it has developed if it hadn't been developed by an overwhelmingly female group.

Because we're (almost all) women, and all (to some extent) queer, and (nearly) all nerds, we're used to being shut down in conversations. We're used to our opinions and emotions being marginalized or cast as abnormal. We're freaks, you guys. And oh my God, you know what? We're not alone. We can open up a laptop and be surrounded by other outsiders, we can read and write stories where the characters whose emotional lives capture us also deal with otherness. We can take the whole heteronormative patriarchal THING that is popular culture and transform it into something that's ours. And then we can turn to our friends, our friends who understand us, and say, look! Look what I've done. And they embrace it with open arms.

That's the real romance of fannishness, for me, not self-insertion stories. I would really, really love to drop Pete Wentz a note sometime that said, "Look, you know you're kind of marginal in this, right?" I would love to tell Bill Becket, just FYI, we're good on our own here. Most of us aren't really trying to get closer to you. We're trying to get closer to artistic truth and to orgasm and to each other. You're just a stepstool on the way.

I've heard people complaining about the Organization for Transformative Works, for many reasons (how dare they expose us to the light! Who asked them to talk for me!) but the one I cannot accept is the complaint that the language of the mission statement mentions that our fandom is female. That's a fundamental part of who we are, that's our history, that's our reality. If fandom weren't a female space, I wouldn't want to be here, because it wouldn't be what we have.
There are 187 comments over 3 pages. (Reply.)
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posted by [identity profile] etben.livejournal.com at 03:02am on 13/10/2007
Most of us aren't really trying to get closer to you. We're trying to get closer to artistic truth and to orgasm and to each other. You're just a stepstool on the way.

Word the fuck up.

More seriously, you are spot on about fandom as a queer space. It boggles me, sometimes, that people get so fixated on the part where women write about guys fucking - like, sure, that's queer, but is it any more queer than women collaborating on writing het porn? Not to mention the shorthand of reassurance and appreciation and whatnot, where we *lick* and *cuddle* and *grope* each other constantly.

And, yeah: I think it's massively important that we acknowledge and respect and embrace what we do here - the creative parts of it, but also (maybe more so) the community we build. Like - I could make a post asking about job searching and rimming and interstellar travel, and I feel like my flist would be VERY HELPFUL on all three fronts.

IN CONCLUSION, *licks you* ILU best, bb. (For values of best that mean LOTS AND LOTS and do not exclude any of the million other awesome fannish people I know.)
 
posted by [identity profile] shoemaster.livejournal.com at 05:52am on 13/10/2007
So pretty much the bits I was going to quote and comment on, she already did, and she said the ILU best, which is so trufax.

Your brain is an awesome place and were I ever some sort of speech giver, I would pay you money (or porn) to write them for me. I may be back later with an actual comment, instead of just "WORD".
 
posted by [identity profile] shihadchick.livejournal.com at 03:03am on 13/10/2007
I don't have much in the way of discussiony stuff to say (though I did feel very "yes, WHY are there not more female musicans, goddamnit?" when I read Zee's post last night - something that resonately more strongly to me, I think, because some of my best friends are the most insanely talented musicians who have been plugging away for years now and keep not being taken down at the last second by people trying to take advantage of them because they're women, or being described as "a girl group" as if that's the only thing that makes them special, or all the times the people at music stores ask Court if she's buying a new pedal "for her boyfriend", augh. Which is more a frustration thing on my side, and very tangential to your post.) but I just wanted to say I enjoyed reading this, Kal, and it's written and stated beautifully. YAY fandom, and yay you. *loves*
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posted by [identity profile] kalpurna.livejournal.com at 03:57am on 15/10/2007
Yeah, that's definitely one of the places where I'm being bogged down by my own point of view; if I were a musician, or had ever aspired to be, I think I'd feel just as you do.

Oh, thank you so much! YAYYY I love you. ♥
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posted by [personal profile] celli at 03:04am on 13/10/2007
This rings true for me in a lot of ways. I'm glad you posted this.
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posted by [identity profile] kalpurna.livejournal.com at 03:58am on 15/10/2007
Aww, I'm so glad you said that! Thank you. :D
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posted by [identity profile] ignazwisdom.livejournal.com at 03:04am on 13/10/2007
I've heard people complaining about the Organization for Transformative Works, for many reasons (how dare they expose us to the light! Who asked them to talk for me!) but the one I cannot accept is the complaint that the language of the mission statement mentions that our fandom is female.

Um, yes. Very much yes. A nd I'm one of the people who HAS had problems with the way OTW is doing things, but I can't even muster up any indignation over those issues because I've been totally derailed by the nimrods complaining about the "sexism against men" in the mission statement. My god, yes, who will think of the poor oppressed men? Is there anyone in the world who has it harder than they do?

I've been waiting for an opportunity to let off steam about that.
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posted by [identity profile] cathexys.livejournal.com at 03:07am on 13/10/2007
Because God forbid if gaming fandom and comics fandom weren't represented by OTW...oh wait, aren't they the ones that get all the fucking press and actual deals and offers by TPTB????

sorry, but I've been holding back over there and am just letting off steam here as well :)
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posted by [identity profile] cathexys.livejournal.com at 03:06am on 13/10/2007
Well, you know I nodded along agreeing with everything you said, right? :)

I find it immensely sad that this has been the first space I've made female friends and that the same is true for a lot of my fannish friends.

So, you may not be talking for everyone, but you sure as hell are speaking for this fangirl!!!
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posted by [identity profile] kalpurna.livejournal.com at 04:01am on 15/10/2007
Considering I stole half of the way I think about fandom from you, yeah, I thought you might. *vbg*

God, I love hearing that people made female friends here when they didn't before. For me, that's what fandom is seriously all about.

♥ ♥ Thank you!
 
posted by [identity profile] somewhatdeluded.livejournal.com at 03:12am on 13/10/2007
I love you really, really a lot. Like, a lot a lot. You and your depression and your vagina and your celebrity crushes and your stories and your meta and your delicious, delicious brains (braaaaaaaains) and THIS, I LOVE THIS SO MUCH.

Every month when I get my mileage statement, I check it and ask "Did I get my free ticket yet? Did I?? DID I???" It's, like, the highlight of my month: will I get to visit my favorite set of snowmobile parts this winter? Will I?? WILL I??? Just. I gotta say, I was a lot more disappointed when I came up short on miles last month than I was when I realized Young Wild Things wasn't coming to Seattle. I think that says a lot a lot about fandom, tbh.

Also: ♥

I think that it says a lot about fandom, too, that that's where I learned that, too.
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posted by [identity profile] kalpurna.livejournal.com at 04:05am on 15/10/2007
Oh, darling, I love your vagina TOO. ♥ ♥ ♥

UGH WHATEVER COME VISIT US ASAP. I HATE YOUR MILEAGE STATEMENT. BURN THAT MOFO.

That says soooo much. Remember that fandom vid that zoomed in on the big pink line of love? ahahaha oh fandom ilu best.

♥
 
posted by [identity profile] ficbyzee.livejournal.com at 03:24am on 13/10/2007
Really, really interesting post. I've also experienced fandom (with the exception of parts of my comics experience) as a female queer space, and that's been largely positive for me. (My experience with the all-girl, all-queer part of fandom has been less rosy than yours, but I'm not going to get into that here.) I go back and forth on whether slash fanfiction is transforming patriarchal heteronormativity or not, though; for me it's depended on the fandom, on the writers. Definitely, DEFINITELY though, the friendships I've formed with other fangirls have been absolutely the most important part of fandom and the main reason I'm here. Without fangirl friendships I never would have moved to Portland, or traveled to New York last year, and I wouldn't be going in the professional direction I'm going in right now.

I'm going to zero in on your comments about my post, though. In my reply to [livejournal.com profile] deliberatehips here (http://ficbyzee.livejournal.com/299389.html?thread=3224957#t3224957) I said that the reason that my post possibly came off as being anti-fan is that I refuse to play the disclaimer game. Have you noticed that most of the time, if someone is posting meta that's critical of their source material at all--especially if it's pointing out sexist/racist aspects--they have to put up a disclaimer of "I still love Sam and Dean/Batman/Angel/Buffy, but...", and then they get attacked for being a bad fan anyway? I didn't want to play into the idea that if I'm going to offer up criticism, I have to bend over backwards to prove that I'm still a good fan. Of course I'm a fan, of course I'm invested in being a fan. I shouldn't have to make that disclaimer, but I also don't want to make anyone feel like I'm snubbing them, so for the record: I don't think writing fanfiction or being a fan is in any way less valid than being a musician. What I wanted to get across was the idea that these guys are NOT in any way more special or talented or important than we are, so I'm very sorry if the opposite idea came through.

Here's what I do question, though, and that's why we let society define what They Do (and here I'm referring to not just the male bands, but also the male creators of all the canons we're invested in) as more valid than what We Do. The fact is that no matter how much I love fandom, I can't make money from this. I can't make out a career out of this. Most importantly, I can't be recognized for this, I can't show it off, I can only show it off to other female fans who are also hiding what they do from the rest of the world.

And maybe this will make me sound like I don't think fandom's good enough or something, but that's really beginning to not be enough for me. Why is it that so few of us are published writers, considering that so many of us are fucking talented? To me that's the same basic question as why aren't there more female musicians, or at least it comes from the same place. Why are we, as women, content to have our art forms be hobbies, content to not make any money or get any recognition for them, when it seems like most men demand recognition from the world no matter what art form they're dabbling in?

I feel like society has programmed women to think that our hobbies can't possibly have any real-world value, and encourages men to think that whatever they're into, they can get a career out of it if they're just determined enough. Every time I get into a discussion with my mom about my fandom involvement, she wants me to cut down on fandom and focus more on other things; whereas my dad wants me to figure out a way to sell articles about fandom to magazines, figure out a way to use my fannish connections to get published, figure out a way to get money and recognition from something I'm passionate about and good at. And wow, this got really tl;dr and tangential, but uh, I guess what I'm saying is: I don't want anyone to feel bad about being "just" a fan, but I'd like to see more women questioning why we're content to do this in the background.
 
posted by [identity profile] sharpest_rose.livejournal.com at 03:55am on 13/10/2007
Tangenting off a tangent, but -- I can't remember if I posted about this or not at the time -- my family literally staged an intervention late last year because they felt it was time for me to stop wasting my brain on fanfiction and start doing real writing. It was, I think it goes without saying, a tough evening for me, mostly because my family have always been really supportive of my decisions otherwise, even when the decisions are risky/silly ones.

I think it's wonderful that so many women in fandom are so happy doing what we do; my whole life -- the city I live in, the friends I love, the dodgy romantic relationships I've learned from, the job I adore -- all came from fandom in one way or another. But there's still a general perception of fandom's illegitimacy, in the outside world, based mostly on the fact that what we do can't be quantified in terms of money, and I know I personally internalise that view a lot more than I should. I think a lot of fans do.

But! And I know I reference this way too often, but I feel it's appropriate here: Frank Iero's scorpion tattoo. His father was pissed off at him for getting it because it displayed a dedication to something which lacked legitimacy/reality -- being in a band.

I guess the closest thing I have to a point is that it's those who're confident/secure/brave enough to ignore naysayers and dim public opinion and keep doing what they love who get to keep on doing it. I spent years believing that fandom was just what I was doing while I was waiting to work out what I was really going to do as a hobby/with my life. Then I realised that hey, actually, it's this amazing foundation upon which everything I have has been built. Kind of like Patrick's remark that FOB was meant to just be an excuse to put off college and real life.
 
posted by [identity profile] stealstheashes.livejournal.com at 03:32am on 13/10/2007
I'm one of those people who is on the fence about fandom as a "female safe space" (at least in part because some of the more extreme posts I've seen about it suggest that there is no place for anyone who is not female in fandom). I'm really glad to read your post because I think you make a lot of interesting points, that I plan to mull over. I especially like your definition of a "female safe space" because it's something that I can accept and understand in a way I wasn't sure I could before.

Also, one of the things this reminded me overwhelmingly of was the idea of a 'Boston Marriage' (which was the subject of a Gilmore Girls fic I should go reread before thinking about this some more, not the least because iirc, it addressed some similar points).
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posted by [identity profile] kalpurna.livejournal.com at 04:08am on 15/10/2007
Yeah, I feel like it's a term that different people interpret in different ways, and that causes trouble. So I'm doubly glad that my interpretation worked for you!

Man, female marriage, that is a whole fascinating thing I could get into but won't because omg tl;dr. But yeah. It totally happened.
 
posted by [identity profile] impertinence.livejournal.com at 03:32am on 13/10/2007
Still agreeing very hard wrt: girls being seen as backstabbing/stereotypically bitchy. It makes me sad that no one believes in solidarity between women. There are NO buddy cop shows with women; there are no war movies, fictional or based on a real event, featuring women. The idea that women could want to live hard lives, the understanding that there are girls who'd love being on the road like the "boys in vans", is almost nonexistent. And the worst part is the surge of acceptance from the female side of things, girls telling other girls that they SHOULDN'T want it. Because, I don't know, it's not in our DNA as much as backstabbing bitchery is, or something. Total DESTRUCTIVE bullshit. There's also the rising, gross trend of girls being told they can be heroes AND be pretty--the underlying thread of that being, of course, that for girls to be heroic they also have to be beautiful all the time. No getting dirty, ladies; that's still a man's job.

Somewhat connected: The thing that struck me first and most about fandom was the level of trust. I grew aware of fandom just as they were amping up Internet safety awareness fucking everywhere, from newspapers to in schools, but fandom--there's the implicit trust that if you're here, if you're one of us, then you're different. People do things like post asking if anyone knows of someone looking for a roomie in City Y; people go go cons and room with people they've never met in person. There's a code of honor here, and I think recognizing that it exists is important, because things like cods of honor are, I think, seen as mainly male. But we have it here (with exceptions, obviously, but even given all the crazy shit that goes down in fandom, there's still innumerably more examples of the kind of trust I was talking about).

Hmm. I think of fandom not as a female safe space, really, but as more of a safe space in general, one that was created by a group who needed a space like that. Most intensely personal things--sexual, health-related, etc.--have a tendency to be treated with revulsion if they're also somehow intrinsically female (for example, the even LEGAL assumption that a half-naked man is somehow less sexual than a half-naked female, presumably because of who is finding this person attractive, or the more obvious society-wide tendency to treat menstruating as something dirty). Fandom is a place created by a group of people who needed a place to talk about those things, and I think, by extension, it became a place where the unwritten rule was that you could talk about whatever you damn well wanted to. The vast majority of fandom tries to be as accepting of everyone--male, female, trans, queer, straight, whatever--as possible, and I think a lot of that stems from the simple reality of most of us knowing what it's like to be treated badly for saying you have menstrual cramps while the dude next to you bitches about his hangover with impunity.

So anyway, yeah. Things. *handflap* Thanks for posting.
 
posted by [identity profile] miznarrator.livejournal.com at 12:13am on 14/10/2007
It makes me sad that no one believes in solidarity between women.

Women do still get a look in with fiction, tho. I know it's nigh on 10 years old now, but Ya-Ya Sisterhood was a huge book, as was the sequel, and I remember reading it pre-fandom (aged 19) and longing for the long-term relationships of closeness between women that the book described...
 
posted by [identity profile] the_antichris.livejournal.com at 04:54am on 13/10/2007
Few things drive me as crazy as the assertion that "girls are vicious to each other." Girls are backstabbing, right? Especially in middle school, it's the fundamental nature of girls to form cliques, to fight and compete over boys, to be jealous and catty. That's the way it is.

Oh, WORD. Because, you know, male adolescents are totally prizes of niceness and aren't EVER horrible to anyone.

This is a new idea, this concept of women as fundamentally hostile to each other. In Victorian England, women's fundamental nature was to love each other, to admire each other physically and intellectually, to form bonds which no man could touch.

*had not ever put that together and ♥s your brain*
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posted by [identity profile] kalpurna.livejournal.com at 04:23am on 15/10/2007
I grind my teeth every. damn. time. UGH. WOMEN ARE NOT INTRINSICALLY BITCHY TO EACH OTHER WTF.

*fumes a little*

*draws hearts around you*
 
posted by [identity profile] musictoyourlips.livejournal.com at 05:05am on 13/10/2007
I... I'm trying so hard to come up with something intelligent to say in response to this, but all I really can say is:

Fandom, to me, is my safe place. These amazing people I've met know more about me than pretty much all of my RL friends. I first came out to one of my fandom friends (I'm bi), they keep me sane, they keep me going. And most of them are amazing women who it is my honor to know. And that support, that unconditional support for whatever you do, is what makes fandom such a special place.

Thank you so much for posting this. ♥
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posted by [identity profile] kalpurna.livejournal.com at 04:25am on 15/10/2007
God, that makes me so happy to hear. I mean, I'm not saying we don't have our problems, but maaaan do I have a huge gooshy center of love for fandom and the community we've built here, and hearing that other people feel the same way just makes my face go :D :D :D

Thank YOU! ♥
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posted by [identity profile] girlneedsagun.livejournal.com at 06:00am on 13/10/2007
Thank you so much for posting this Image
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posted by [identity profile] kalpurna.livejournal.com at 04:25am on 15/10/2007
:DDDDD I'm really glad you liked it!
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posted by [identity profile] redbrickrose.livejournal.com at 06:35am on 13/10/2007
Delurking to say Thank you. Thank you so much for saying this and saying it clearly and articulately.

I even think it's fair to make the argument that no matter how straight you may be – no matter how little interest you have in having sex with or dating a woman – if you are participating in slash fandom, you are, on some level, queer. You are participating in an erotic activity with other women. You are interested in, almost obsessed with, queerness and queer themes. Nobody who reads or writes slash isn't a little bit queer.

This makes a lot of sense. I was at Writercon last summer (BtVS fanfic-as-lit convention) and at the sex panel one of my friends brought this up - the *innate* queerness of fandom, that no matter how you look at it really, we are women writing fic with often the express purpose of getting other women off. The conversation got derailed fairly quickly, which was disappointing because that would have been an excellent context in which to have it, but I've been thinking about that idea ever since. You've put in to words some of the stuff I couldn't. Thank you. Because yes, this is why fandom is worthwhile, why it's important - the bonds and relationships we form and the conversations we can't have anywhere else.


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posted by [identity profile] kalpurna.livejournal.com at 04:27am on 15/10/2007
Awww, thank you! That's really sweet, and I'm glad you liked it. <3

*nods and nods* yeah, I completely agree. I can't think of anything to add, because, yeah, that. Exactly.
 
posted by [identity profile] kuwdora.livejournal.com at 07:02am on 13/10/2007

I'm way too tired to read this because I'm still giggling inside my head over Doppleganger and the gaynes that is John Sheppard. But I'm leaving you a comment because comments make you happy. I guess it'd make you happier if I had read it and had something substantial to say about your essay but it seems like other people are taking care of that.

Really I'm just commenting to say that I totally know where you're sleeping tonight. *evil cackle*
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posted by [identity profile] kalpurna.livejournal.com at 04:28am on 15/10/2007
UGH WHY ARE YOU NOT WARMING MY FEET RIGHT NOW YOU WHORE. THEY ARE COLD AND I BLAME YOU.
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posted by [identity profile] lordessrenegade.livejournal.com at 11:25am on 13/10/2007
*jumps up and down and points*

YES. THAT.

Hi, I love your braaaains.

(Possibly I will be able to leave a more coherent comment when I am not just waking up? Possibly not. But. ♥)
ext_7824: Greta Salpeter (Default)
posted by [identity profile] kalpurna.livejournal.com at 04:29am on 15/10/2007
HAH for one second I thought that said "I love your breaaaasts" and I was all, why hello there, fandom's inate queerness!

♥ ♥ Thanks, I'm really glad you liked it. :D
 
posted by [identity profile] adellyna.livejournal.com at 02:12pm on 13/10/2007
This was... yes. Just, yes. I wish I had things to say other than that, but yeah.
ext_7824: Greta Salpeter (Default)
posted by [identity profile] kalpurna.livejournal.com at 04:31am on 15/10/2007
That icon always makes me think of the kissing booth story where Pete's nametag says "you know you want a piece of this", and that makes me happy. ♥

I'm so glad you enjoyed it, thank you. :D
 
posted by [identity profile] monroe-nell.livejournal.com at 02:21pm on 13/10/2007
*stares at the meta*

You kinda just entirely changed the way I thought about fandom. Or, well, didn't think about fandom. Yeah.

(OKay - fandom was just there and I was in it and it is so cool people think like I do, they *get* it. But I never thought of the why. But you did and it makes sense and I wish I was as smart as you.)
ext_7824: Greta Salpeter (Default)
posted by [identity profile] kalpurna.livejournal.com at 04:33am on 15/10/2007
Awww, thank you so much, what a flattering thing to hear. :D :D :D

♥ ♥ Thank you! I'm glad you liked it!
ext_3545: Jon Walker, being adorable! (Default)
posted by [identity profile] dsudis.livejournal.com at 04:12pm on 13/10/2007
Checking in from a con - where I am rooming with two women I'd never met before I checked into a hotel with them, who I nonetheless trusted implicitly simply because they are Our Kind - to say, yeah. Yeah, that.
 
posted by [identity profile] greyandgrey.livejournal.com at 04:42pm on 13/10/2007
Ok, yes. They are our kind and therefore I trust them. This is so... yes. I have tried to explain this kind of trust that we have of one another to outsiders and they´ve always given me the same "that´s so sketch" reaction. But, like, it´s not. Because I may not have met someone before, but I know them and they know me in this profound way that probably even our own families don´t even understand. People don´t get that unless they´re part of it...

ps Jon Walker icons FTW
 
posted by [identity profile] greyandgrey.livejournal.com at 04:56pm on 13/10/2007
Hi. ilu. You´ve managed to express all these thoughts that have been whirling around my brain, unarticulated, for ages, and then go a step further to make me think about fandom and fan community more deeply. I just, you brain. I love it. The thought "Look, you know you're kind of marginal in this, right?" has crossed my mind so many times in reference to bandom boys and JK Rowling and all these other people who create the basis for the fandoms I´ve been in, but for some reason I´ve never expressed that out loud (read: on lj)

Anyways, I was gonna andhearts you here, but there´s no ampersand on this fucking keyboard. so.. *loves*
ext_7824: Greta Salpeter (Default)
posted by [identity profile] kalpurna.livejournal.com at 04:43am on 15/10/2007
Oh man, thank you! I'm so, yeah, I'm really glad to know other people think this way too. It really pisses me off when creators/actors/fanobjects think it's all about them. Way to miss the point, dudes and ladies!

&HEARTS; YOU

ext_16873: (Default)
posted by [identity profile] maleyka.livejournal.com at 05:36pm on 13/10/2007
There are some straight women on my friendslist, some lesbians, one gay man, and quite a lot of bisexuals or otherwise queer individuals. It can be pretty damn hard to be a straight woman in fandom, according to my friends who are.

I've never exactly found it hard, but yes, it's also been my experience that fandom (and I started out in LotRips, brushed with Harry Potter, spent a long time in Supernatural and am now mainly active in bandslash) is overwhelmingly people who are at the very least bisexual. As someone who became a member of the fangirl community at sixteen, I can't say enough good things about what it's done for my personal development, for my tolerance and flexibility, just by interacting and forming friendships with girls and women who were gay or bi and were completely unabashed and even proud of it when I didn't know any "out" people in my real life. That said, it gives me pause every time when something like "EW, HET" crops up in fandom, because I'm like, "... wow, thanks." At the same time, I think it's just another thing that goes to show that slash fandoms, at the very least, are by no means a dominion of straight females. And I'm fine with that, don't get me wrong, it's just something I think a lot of people overlook.

Wow, that was wordy and kind of self-involved. *g*

Few things drive me as crazy as the assertion that "girls are vicious to each other."

Yes. Just, yes. I'm not denying there's a certain brand of cattiness that's a specialty between girls, but there's also a deep, tender and loyal kind of friendship that's hardly inferior to male relationships. Yes, many women are bitches; guess what, many men are assholes. Statements like "girls suck" are prejudiced, misogynistic crap, and they don't become less so if you're a woman saying it.
ext_7824: Greta Salpeter (Default)
posted by [identity profile] kalpurna.livejournal.com at 04:47am on 15/10/2007
Hah, "hard" may have been an overstatement, yeah. But I've definitely heard people say, "I'm straight! Really! I like boys! It's not a phase!" So the "straight women writing about gay men" thing just never rang true to me. *g*

I agree so freaking hard. Misogyny: YOU DON'T HAVE TO PERPETUATE IT. Ugh, I hate that this shit is so ingrained in our culture. :(
 
posted by [identity profile] miss-saigon.livejournal.com at 06:47pm on 13/10/2007
I would really, really love to drop Pete Wentz a note sometime that said, "Look, you know you're kind of marginal in this, right?" I would love to tell Bill Becket, just FYI, we're good on our own here. Most of us aren't really trying to get closer to you. We're trying to get closer to artistic truth and to orgasm and to each other. You're just a stepstool on the way.

I love that you said this because it's so true. As much as we squee over canon and get excited about OMG Patrick Stump reads fanfiction!!! We don't need that validation from the source material because it's really not about them. I think that's why I loved Frank's answer about not reading fanfiction because he recognizes that it's not for him, it's ours.

ext_7824: Greta Salpeter (Default)
posted by [identity profile] kalpurna.livejournal.com at 04:50am on 15/10/2007
Seriously, I would LOVE to tell them that. Frank's answer is yet another reason why he is pretty much the best thing in the world: it's NOT for them, and we don't need their validation. Pete Wentz, seriously, I know it might look like we're all trying to bone you, but that's actually not what keeps us here. Hard to believe, but true.
 
posted by [identity profile] magdalyna.livejournal.com at 08:23pm on 13/10/2007
*licks your brain*

This was lovely and deep and I agree so much.
ext_7824: Greta Salpeter (Default)
posted by [identity profile] kalpurna.livejournal.com at 04:50am on 15/10/2007
Awww, thanks! I'm so glad you liked it!
 
posted by [identity profile] sockich.livejournal.com at 08:39pm on 13/10/2007


I'm feeling ridiculously mushy with love right now, but. Just. Yes. Yes, that, exactly.
ext_7824: Greta Salpeter (Default)
posted by [identity profile] kalpurna.livejournal.com at 04:51am on 15/10/2007
Awwww, now *I'm* mushy. I'm really really glad you enjoyed the post. ♥ ♥
 
posted by [identity profile] daybreak25.livejournal.com at 09:00pm on 13/10/2007
Dude. Just. Thank you so much. :D
ext_7824: Greta Salpeter (Default)
posted by [identity profile] kalpurna.livejournal.com at 04:52am on 15/10/2007
*blushes kind of a lot*
ext_22: Pretty girl with a gele on (Default)
posted by [identity profile] quivo.livejournal.com at 09:13pm on 13/10/2007
This is my experience. This is how I feel. If you feel differently, I would love to hear about it, but please don't tell me angrily that I don't speak for you.
What if I *am* angry? I've been pissed about the state of things for a while now, so I'm going to be fairly polite anyway since your post is only really a catalyst for everything.

I just wanted to ask something that immediately occurred to me once I saw this bit:
Note: terminology is kind of confusing. For the purposes of this post, "fandom" is being used to mean "media slash fandom." Or, well, media slash and RPS. And het written by people who also write slash or interact with slashers. Basically, if your fandom operates in some way remotely analogous to the way SGA or Bandslash or Due South fandom operates, then I'm talking to you
What does it mean if I don't necessarily belong to any of those fandoms, or can't call myself a media slash fan in the same way that most of your other readers can?1

And really, that's it. Worst thing about saying this is I mostly like this post you've made. I love that I get to partake of the advantages of the female space here despite the fact that I don't see or consume the same way most people seem to do. But I can't help biting my tongue and rolling my eyes whenever this general topic of queer squee comes up. In that sense, I can understand the complaints of people unhappy with OTW-- feeling like you're being excluded or misrepresented sucks. Feeling like you don't necessarily belong in a space you thought you might belong in sucks, and all the goodness of participating in a safe female space doesn't mean much if you feel like you're missing some of the benefits of it.

And no, I'm not really looking for an answer here. What's the point? Most answers I come up with or come across are some variation on the theme of
a)this is our space so just shut up
b)you're being whiny, shut up
c)slash is better anyways, why don't you like it
d)go play with the lousy het-lovers! *listens* What, you don't even ship? AWAY, you soulless thing!
e)er, I don't really know. Sorry? *goes back to whatever they were doing*
f)that really sucks! *goes back to whatever they were doing*

I just wanted to say something for once, instead of feeling bad, rolling my eyes, closing the tab and ignoring it when the link pops up [livejournal.com profile] metafandom. You have no obligation to reply.

1It suddenly occurs to me that this question is the main problem in the whole OTW debate. People on the margin of something in some way know what the usual result of asking such a question is: no change, or very little of it. Whether that lack of change is accompanied by wank, fighting, accusations, expressions of sympathy and guilt and so on is another issue entirely.
ext_7824: Greta Salpeter (Default)
posted by [identity profile] kalpurna.livejournal.com at 04:14am on 15/10/2007
I really don't know what to say. You've called out a lot of the things I probably would have said, and I hate to be predictable, but - I am sorry that you don't feel welcome in fandom. That's awful. I'm sorry you're part of a marginalized minority; I know what that's like, I know it sucks. I'm not willing to stop talking about the things I love because they aren't the things you love, though, and I can't apologize for the fact that my experience *has* been so affirming. I'm not asking you to shut up because this is "our" space - but I'm not going to change my behavior to make your type of (perfectly valid) less marginal, and it would be dishonest to pretend I will. In other words, I'm not going to shut up just because this is a space I belong it.

So, I guess mostly f, then. I wish I had a better answer for you, I know this one is inadequate.
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